smelting questions

[eriktlupus]

I have the crazy idea in my head to take acraps of steel wire(1010) and filings from the shop lathes, drills, etc and mixing in equal parts crushed glass. Then using the mix to charge a smelter or in crucible steel.  

My question is will this work in lieu of an iron ore?

[Steve Sells]

No in part because melting is not smelting.

[dickb]

I have the crazy idea in my head to take acraps of steel wire(1010) and filings from the shop lathes, drills, etc and mixing in equal parts crushed glass. Then using the mix to charge a smelter or in crucible steel.  

My question is will this work in lieu of an iron ore?

No, your recipe forgot the eye of newt and toe of frog, wool of bat and bat and tongue of dog. 

[Nobody Special]

You might be able to melt it in a foundry, however casting is quite a different animal than smithing and the danger level is exponentially higher. Casting steel or iron is much, much harder than say bronze or aluminum, which is difficult to do well in and of itself. As noted grumpily above, melting metal shouldn't be confused with smelting ore, as they use different processes and make a different end product.

Random steel would make it very difficult to predict or achieve a good outcome, note the crappy stuff that was turned out of the backyard foundries under Mao in China. For the most part they had little experience with metalwork, and were literally melting whatever was at hand to meet quotas.

I'm guessing the glass part is coming from watching Ric Furrer's wootz class vids? If you're interested in casting, I strongly suggest that you find an experienced mentor, group, or teacher. You could save and catalog those seperate bits to do cannister damascus.

[Frosty]

Trying to wing it where molten iron/steel is concerned is like playing Russian roulette to learn gun safety. Even casting lead is REALLY dangerous and NO I don't mean breathing the fumes, I mean the concentrated energy in molten metal just waiting a LITTLE moisture to convert to kinetic energy and spray a bunch of still molten metal all over the place.

IIRC, 10lbs. of molten iron (think lg. coffee mug full) has the rough equivalent energy of one CASE of 40% dynamite and is a whole LOT easier to get to explode.

Keep looking and dreaming though, there is more cool stuff you can do with metals than a boy could wish.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Nobody Special]

Ah, come on....I've only got little white scars all over my legs from one casting accident. And the metal fume thing once. (once was enough) And a couple of burns on my hands. And one on my arm. And the foundry that blew out the side walls completely missed me, although there was nifty shrapnel everywhere. And the multitude of shoes with crap melted into the soles......but I did eventually learn casting on my own, only a little help.  Also, that wall was already messed up anyways, the scorching didn't look that bad, how was I supposed to know it would go that far?

http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents/single-topic/foundry-manual/

A little fun and complex reading to give ya an idea of how crazy it can get.

[eriktlupus]

Wow. So many posts calling me a fool for wanting to do something that i never said i wanted to do (casting).  What i was referring  to was wootz steel or crucible steels.  The smelting was just an idea since i do not have a ready source of iron ore available  to me.

[Charlotte]

Wow. So many posts calling me a fool for wanting to do something that i never said i wanted to do (casting).  What i was referring  to was wootz steel or crucible steels.  The smelting was just an idea since i do not have a ready source of iron ore available  to me.

Ok,  I apologize for misunderstanding your post.  Crucible steel is another project and possible but not really practical  unless you have a buddy to strike for you or access to a power hammer or press.  Takes a lot of pounding to break down an ingot of crucible steel and it needs to be done very carefully to avoid breaking the ingot at the start.  I think you may want to start with trying "canister welding"   Check the Blade forums for information on that.  

[Nobody Special]

Absolutely not calling you a fool. New at this, yes. Casting, smelting and crucible steel are all doable, and have been thought of by many of us at one point. Am suggesting that what you are suggesting is difficult and dangerous, especially for a beginner, isn't really smelting, and probably won't yield good results.

Suggesting that if you're interested in taking it further that experienced help/teacher is your best bet. An iron casting group, sculptor's group, or college class. If that doesn't turn up something, ask around in your local blacksmithing group. Most metalwork was originally done as a large group activity, and some forms are still best learned that way, and more fun to boot.

Also making fun of myself a bit for stubbornly doing it the hard way and getting hurt on several occaisions while learning...fortunately nothing major, which helps to place emphasis on the above. Definitely wish you good luck.

[ianinsa]

Were I in your shoes I'd consider a course with Ric Furrer, he's literally a hop, skip and a jump away from you(400 miles or so) in Door County.  

Ric has really been there, done that and given the lecture . Wootz is a fascinating subject and 'he's da man' in that field. Besides he's a knowledgeable and likable chap. And Sturgeon bay area is a pleasant place to spend a couple of days too. 

Should you just be interested in the subject he's definitely worth a Google

Lastly I don't believe that folk think you are a fool, and you aren't a spring chicken either! It's just a case of "Do as I recommend rather than do what I did"

I have on occasion done "less than smart" even stupid and reckless things (had fun at it too) but I'd hardly recommend that to a stranger.

[Steve Sells]

Wow. So many posts calling me a fool for wanting to do something that i never said i wanted to do (casting).  What i was referring  to was wootz steel or crucible steels.  The smelting was just an idea since i do not have a ready source of iron ore available  to me.

You posted on a smithing site, not knowing the difference between a melt or smelting, and still are misusing the terms.  Sorry you are upset that we  misunderstood you

Once you have 2.800 degree puddle of liquid steel, then what did you think you will do with it? its going to get poured somewhere.  FYI your post never said Wootz, so dont complain to us if you cant use correct terms, and get misunderstood about it, say what you meant, or at least research enough to know what you are asking about, it will save all of us some annoyance and embarrassment.

[eriktlupus]

Steve i also never said anything about pouring. Asking if i could use the mix in a smelter or for a crucible steel.

 Turns out I'm not the only one to think of this. after looking around online i found a practice called orishigane (oroshigane) which is a practice for increasing the carbon content of steel or using shop scraps to form new steel. Using a small bloomery style furnace

 

that is not smelting

[Charlotte]

think he is warning you to be safe rather than sorry.  Gear alone will set you back the price of many lbs of high alloy steel.

[DanielC]

If you want to turn the scraps into something usable, you can still get something in return without doing a pour. This can be achieved in an aristotle furnace (poor control of carbon content), a shallow hearth (great control of carbon content), or even a full size smelting stack (semi-great control over csrbon content). It will skip reduction and basically melt within the presence of carbon.

For any of these methods I would stick with the known 1010 wire, and practice with 40-50# of it with any of the above methods.

 

As far as crucible steel goes (because it is unlikely a beginner or even most crucible steel enthusiasts except for a few are making wootz quality crucible steel), it is a tough animal, and will require a decent setup to get it right, and of course tons of trial and error. There is material out their on crucible steel, and even re-melting in the above methods, but it will really come down to practice.

Good luck.

[Jammer]

Look at Aristotle furnace. It's for melting steel through a bloomery type furnace. I don't remember who was showing the process, maybe someone else knows or check out Lee Sauder's site.

 

Oops, Daniel beat me to it, I type too slow. But, I found it.

http://www.leesauder.com/pdfs/Aristotle's%20Steel.pdf

Edited September 24, 2015 by Jammer
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[Charles R. Stevens]

The guys from DARP use a mix of ironoxide pigment and flower to form a bogiron aproximation. Others like TP save forge scale. 

[eriktlupus]

 Thank you daniel and jammer. More info is always appreciated.

Charles...i knew there had to be something historically since steel was so scarce they had to have a way consolidate all the small scraps in the shop scale, filings etc.

Charlotte.. always try to be safe. Burned myself too much growing up not to

[Jammer]

Looks like you have made it past the name calling and fearmongering, Most have ran after one or two posts. Study and learn, enter with safety in mind. Casting and forging has it's dangers, but I don't think either is as dangerous as driving on the freeway.

Try to learn the terminology, It drives some people nuts. I blame the Smelting - Melting confusion on Goldmember and his unfortunate smelting accident.

[ThomasPowers]

Historically steel wasn't melted in Western Europe until the 1700's with Huntsman's process.

The bloomery smelting process didn't melt the iron/steel; it sort of sludged down to the base of the furnace to form the bloom of wrought iron would could have a wide range of carbon contents.  (The direct process, the tatara is a bloomery furnace type)

The  stuckoffen smelters that took ore and produced cast iron which then could be remelted and "fined" into wrought iron/steel (the indirect process) are toward the end of the medieval period/start of the renaissance.

How you dealt with wrought iron scrap was to forge weld it up into usable sizes; but remember that with forging to shape there was less "wasted" metal than with methods using "stock removal"

Edited September 25, 2015 by ThomasPowers

[Charles R. Stevens]

It was common practise to fold and weld used shoes as practice for aprentices and the US army taught smiths to twist bundles of biling wire and weld this (think cable demaskis knives) into usable bars. This was for practice surely but if you were at the end of the supply lines recycling is all part of it. 

The fact that some smiths save scale and the dark ages reenacting group uses iron oxide piment and flour is to have "ore" to smelt into rought iron. Not a historical method of recycling. 

When blister steel was produced I am sure a lot of "scrap" to small for other methods of recycling was used, but wile steel and iron making were laber intensive activities, recycling was king, there is a reason why we talk about turning swords into plowshares. 

[ThomasPowers]

As I recall a test for 19th century cavalry smiths was to take two worn shoes and forge weld them together and forge a new shoe from that.  Forgewelding used horse shoe nails into rods and then twisting the rods and welding them up was supposed to make a high grade material as the nails were "refined" by the pounding they took.  (More likely it was that the better nails survived to be recovered and reused and the poorer nails broke and were lost....so a selection bias as cold working does not refine steel...)  An interesting historical bit is to read the description of the forging of the harpoon in "Moby Dick".

[Charles R. Stevens]

Dont know about you, but handforging horseshoe nails is a PITA. 

If faced with forgeing new shoes for old, i would fold the two shoes and forge weld, then draw to forge the naile holes closed, then forge the two rods to gether, might not be the most effecent method but it is waht comes to mind, knowing how the toes wear and dealing with nail holes.