Best time of day/light for smithing outside

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Folks,

First post here. I'm a woodworker and toolmaker, trying to learn some basic smithing so I can make my own plane irons and other types of cutters for woodworking tools. This summer, I built the simple little forge pictured below, and have had a lot of fun getting my feet wet with it.

 

I have a question that I haven't found the answer to; sorry if this is already posted somewhere else. What is the best time of day to forge outside, in terms of light and being able to see the colors most accurately? Working inside is not an option for me. Should I actually work at night, or at sunset, or ?

 

The question came up because yesterday I was working during the day. It was cloudy, but still somewhat bright. I had a really hard time seeing colors accurately, and I probably got things hotter than I should have. Oh well.

 

Anyway, thanks in advance for any answers. I have already learned a ton here, just from lurking.

 

- Steve

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

"Under the spreading chestnut tree the village smithy stands".  You should work in shade but not in darkness.  Trying to smith by the light of the forge/workpiece is dangerous.  Cloudy days where there is not a good differentiation between sun and sky light are difficult.  An old trick from the pioneer days when they would need to make wagon repairs on the treeless plains was to suspend an empty barrel up so you could hold your workpiece inside it to judge the color.  Ambient light does shift the colour you see; with practice the "softness" of the metal will give you an idea of the "true temp" and you can offset your perceived colours using that.

[SpankySmith]

I also work outside and in the Deep South, where the biggest factor in deciding when to work is the HEAT.  So for me, that means starting as early as I can without *upsetting*  the neighbors, and stopping before late afternoon when the really oppressive heat arrives.  

 

When I first started I found even under the shade of a pecan tree I had trouble seeing heat colors once I removed something from the forge.  The simple solution for me was to place one of those 9' tall outdoor patio umbrellas in the vicinity of my anvil.   It made a HUGE difference for me in seeing the colors - one of those knock myself on the head/why didn't I think of that sooner moments.  Of course it (should) go without saying to make sure the umbrella is both tall enough and placed correctly enough that you don't risk setting the thing on fire accidentally!  

[ThomasPowers]

Ha; I bet Spanky has a nice glass of sweet tea with a sprig of mint in it  for her anvil under the patio umbrella too...

[SoCal Dave]

I found that working in a darker shop with the doors opened and just daylight coming through works best for me.  Even then, I must move the piece around while waiting for the colors to run or to judge the heat level.   100 years ago the blacksmiths of their day must of used sunlight to judge the color of metal.  Lamps just don't give off that much light like our modern fluorescent lights.  

[SpankySmith]

Ha; I bet Spanky has a nice glass of sweet tea with a sprig of mint in it  for her anvil under the patio umbrella too...

 

Thomas, I must be the only person south of the Mason-Dixon line who HATES sweet tea.   A cold beer is more like it!    :P

[Frosty]

Sweet tea, <shudder> WAY too sweet even when I want a little sweet in my tea. Folk from the high & low desert know the only good tea is sun tea and Red Rose is it. The bummer here is I can't find the restaurant tea bags so I have to use 9 regular bags and the "midnight sun".

 

A shadow box is a common solution, I often use the shadow under my forge. However, there are other ways to judge forging temperatures: The feel under the hammer and through your holding hand being the main ones. Your ears, but you gotta listen to the music. These are my main indicators at the anvil. In the forge is another matter, my gasser is a known quantity so judging how the steel looks compared to the forge inside is all I and the guys who learn from me need.

 

In a solid fuel forge, judging temp in the fire is harder and if you're working in the sun, harder still. With your brake drum forge just drag the piece across the edge of the drum. This does two things, before long you'll learn to interpret the sound and feel correlated to working temperature. It also serves to scrape scale off the work so you don't drive it into the project under the hammer. You can also give it a light tap against your fire pot drum. (fire drum?) It won't take long and you'll know the steel's working properties from the sound and feel.

 

Heat treating is another horse color entirely. I just don't heat treat outdoors unless it's extremely basic and a non critical application. I'll do a fire striker outdoors at demos but wouldn't even consider a struck tool or blade, the consequences of a failure are too important.

 

So, that's my 2 bits. forging temps outdoors is a matter of practice to develop your judgement. Heat treating is a DON'T DO IT outdoors in daylight.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone.

 

Frosty: I should have mentioned that heat treating is probably the number one thing I'm doing. Given that I can't work indoors, when should I do it? Right before dark? Thomas's point about working in the dark being dangerous seems like a good one.

Also, thanks for the tip about dragging the work across the edge of the drum--I will definitely try that.

[rockstar.esq]

I got a pair of shade 3 safety glasses.  They're green which pretty much makes them impossible for heat treating since they distort the colors.  What is great about them is that I can stare into the fire without fear of hurting my eyes.  Watching the piece come up to temperature for forging is very helpful because it's easy to get a shallow heat on larger stock.  I have found that I can see what's going on well enough that I can let a piece "soak" without burning it much better by watching it as I slack off on the blower.  Shallow heats tend to darken quicker in the fire.

 

I never much worried about the brightness hurting my eyes till I looked into it a bit more.  I used to figure I was just tired at the end of a day of forging even though I tried very hard not to look directly into the fire.

 

Now I can look as much as I want and my eyes feel better than they used to.

 

Depending on what you're heat treating you might want to consider using a large metal block as a heat sink.  I've seen people using heavy bar stock to temper small blades via conduction.  You could potentially put a metal bucket on it's side and use the shaded interior to do the whole operation.

 

If you're using a magnet to roughly get to critical temp, you can tie one to a stick and test the piece while it's in the fire.  Once again, the shade 3 glasses make it a snap to see what you're doing.

[Glenn]

I have forged in bright daylight and in total darkness at midnight (with lights). As a photographer I understand the quantity of light difference. For instance going from daylight at high noon to overcast is 1/16 the amount of light and if it is starting to rain 1/32 the amount of available light - photographically, which equates to real time lighting. By setting up artificial lighting you can easily be close to 1/100 th the amount of light available during daylight.That is 100 times more light during daylight than under artificial lights.

 

Your eyes adjust to ambient light, opening up during low light. The intensity of light from the forge is the same. This forces your eyes to constantly adjust to a major difference between the darkness of artificial light and the intensity of the light from the forge. For that reason I no longer forge after dark outside.

 

Once I found a pair of shade 3 gas welding glasses I keep them by the forge. They tone down the intensity of the light and allow you to actually see the metal in the fire. Being green throws the colors off so I have a shadow box set up to judge the colors of the metal if needed. 

 

The cost of the shade 3 glasses is minimal and you can always use them for gas welding.

[arcc]

Thomas, I must be the only person south of the Mason-Dixon line who HATES sweet tea. A cold beer is more like it! :P

Nah, hate tea and coffee equally.

Another option is to make burning the steel hard to do. On my demo forge I have a small Champion blower that come off an old rivet forge. Between it and the forge you really have to turn it to be able to burn steel even on small stock.

[turbo7]

moonlight works for me

[Judson Yaggy]

The right time to forge?  All day every day, or all night every night.  It takes 10k hours to get really good at something so the additional challenge of variable light should average out in the long run.  Trying and failing a whole bunch of times should make you a better smith in the long run if you pay attention to the conditions (light and otherwise) every time. 

[Frosty]

Thanks for the replies so far, everyone.

 

Frosty: I should have mentioned that heat treating is probably the number one thing I'm doing. Given that I can't work indoors, when should I do it? Right before dark? Thomas's point about working in the dark being dangerous seems like a good one.

Also, thanks for the tip about dragging the work across the edge of the drum--I will definitely try that.

 

I forgot to welcome you aboard Steve, I must've gotten excited or something. If you put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance.

 

I figured you were most concerned with heat treatment, making blades. After heat treating everything else is small potatoes, well, okay, I'll give you making pattern welded billets as a close second but good heat treat is make or break and the most technically difficult.

 

Hardening can be done in relative darkness so long as you can move around safely. Tempering by color is where consistent light is most important. You must be able to judge the color accurately and seeing as it's a judgement call based on how YOU see colors you really need to have consistent light levels over time. (read practice)

 

Use a toaster oven with a good quality thermometer. It's not like you're doing differential tempers so slowly raising the temperature to a specific level for a specific time is what matters. Use a thermostat and quality thermometer and it doesn't matter what the light level is.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Steve Voigt]

Frosty, thanks for the welcome and especially for the advice. I will try HT just before dark and see how that goes.

I've updated my location; I think there are a lot of blacksmiths in this area.

[Nobody Special]

Most of my free time is late evenings, so I forge at night outdoors sometimes. Like at least one ambient light somewhere near, but not overly, and.....and this is important if you don't want to say, lose tools, step on hot bits and melt the soles of your shoes, want to find safety equipment in a hurry.....one of those LED headlamps on a forehead strap, preferably with adjustable brightness.

 

Move it a little, and you've got good light everywhere you look, or total darkness, and a fair range in between. Note that if you use one you have to very very careful not to look directly at anyone else and blind them. Also make sure it doesn't interfere with PPE and that you have a backup. Prep the light before you need it, so you don't waste time while the iron's hot. And of course, don't walk if you can't see where you're going!

 

Generally though, somewhere shady during the day, with some kind of shadebox. Early morning is nice both for the light, and the cool of the day.