SoCal Dave Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 I'v seen video's of Mark Aspery forge welding branches together. They are end to end, but I want to forge weld a branch in the middle of a larger branch. I've looked but haven't found any video's on how to do this. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 A common English approach would be to forge the two parts together then forge a stem on to make the arm longer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Forge weld the two upper parts of the branch together then do a second weld welding on the lower part. So first weld would form a V second weld would transform the V into a Y. Or you could do a cleft or a T weld onto the side. Easiest for me has been doing the 2 welds rather then doing the side weld. (Can't think of the right word at the moment.) I did a set of triple leaf hooks for a family heirloom rifle for a park ranger, one each way. I then did a series of triple leaf hooks as a way of testing various flux's and lack of flux. Branches welded on at a 45% with a leaf at both top and the bottom hook. Easier to do on square then it is on round. And if going the one weld approach plan for material loss from scaling and or miss hit hammer blows. At least that is ways that has worked for me. Rashelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted February 21, 2014 Author Share Posted February 21, 2014 I have an existing branch with leaves that I've decided to add a branch about half way down. I think it needs a branch there. I want it to look natural and it would be very difficult to cut the branch, add the branch, and then add the bottom half of the branch back for the Y. How would I scarf the branch I want to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rashelle Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 WIN_wall hook.JPG I have no clue if this worked. Excuse the modern screw. I just moved into a new place. I made these hooks some time ago. This is an example of what I was talking about above. Some were done with two welds doing a branch weld then a butt weld. Others were a cleft weld, a third type I did was welding at a 45% directly onto the other piece. So all of the options I mentioned above work with same result. If you can upset the parent branch in the area you want the weld, if not be careful. They Y ones I preferred not using a cleft weld. Instead a short sharp flat taper, then rounded to fit partially around the branch. Being careful at the lower part, of the transition where it is thinnest, to blend that in. I hope this makes sense. It's been a long day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted February 21, 2014 Share Posted February 21, 2014 Greetings Dave, I guess it would depend on the diameter of the branches and the placement of the leaves.. The biggest problem of retro fitting is getting the components in the proper position in the forge and at the right temperature. You only have one chance to get it right.. I have done several with an adaption to my treadle hammer that allows me a localized hammer blow.. I have also resorted to the old tig welder and on occasion torch welding. Both you could never see that it was not a forge weld.. A picture of what you are trying to accomplish would help with the required scarf . There are many factors and angles to consider.. I have on occasion created a small tenon with a matching scarf to make the forge weld a single component weld.. It is indeed a challenge. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 I might try to punch the existing piece, ... making a "dimple" on the "back" side of the hole, to peen the end of the addition into, ... thereby, more-or-less "riveting" the addition in place, without leaving a raised head on the back side of the piece. Then re-shape the affected area, to blend in the "bulge" created by punching, ... and to get the "look" I want. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Smoothbore, I cant visualise the procedure you are offering. I will have the same problem as SoCalDave in the coming week and I would like to understand clearly. Even if I do not understand, it seems to be an interestibg alternative. Would you please elaborate a little. Thanks, Yves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 also use a rounding hammer when doing this weld. this will start your final curve at the vee whilst doing the weld. if not it is real hard, if not impossible, in many situations, to get the scrolling done at the vee w/o getting a flatspot. You just can't get your scrolling forks in there. transitions are always the most interesting details, and the hardest to pull off. for me when I figured this out my "branch" welds became more flowing with way less time involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Greetings, My alternative procedure is the same as Smoothbores .. Make a tenon on the branch.. Drill a hole.. ( punching is hard to do ) Forge weld and reshape... Like I said It can be done... Just not easy.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 It's difficult to go retro with something that's partly completed. I like to have the parent stem or branch with a swelling (lump) where the weld takes place. This allows for hammer blow loss. It is difficult to upset in the middle, so I will often SOR* either side of the proposed lump. The smaller branch I sometimes upset on the end, sometimes not. My scarf is pointed. I hammer a 3 sided pyramid; there is no such thing, but I'm asking you to visualize a four sided one like a wire nail point. Now make it 3 sided. Your hammer will contact 3 sides but will not touch the straight, flat side. This latter flat side goes alongside the lump. If you're old fashioned, you will haywire the two together keeping them straight without curves. Use two separate wraps a distance away from the weld area. The drawback is when the wires get hot, they may loosen. Also, do not weld in the wires or you'll have a noodle-like mess. Start over. Another route is to tack weld the two scarfs on the side with arc or oxy. That will hold them until you hammer weld. The weld is done on the anvil face, SOR, with sometimes finishing on the horn. Take care the horn doesn't fuller too deep. There may be many other approaches, but this has worked for me. The pointy scarf is made to minimize sideways spread when welding round to round stock. You want to avoid fishtailing of the scarf end while you are welding. The side spread is a pain with a widely made scarf, because you get two thin "ears" which you have to wrap around and try to blend in. The advantage of forge welding the two is to obtain a "vanishing point" where to two blend together, a desirable "shut." *Square-octagonal-round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted February 22, 2014 Share Posted February 22, 2014 Smoothbore, I cant visualise the procedure you are offering. I will have the same problem as SoCalDave in the coming week and I would like to understand clearly. Even if I do not understand, it seems to be an interestibg alternative. Would you please elaborate a little. Thanks, Yves Sure. The technique could vary, depending on the size of the main "branch", at the point where you want to add the smaller branch. ( I hesitate to call this a "Mortise & Tenon" joint, ... because I'm not entirely sure that would be absolutely correct, ... so I'll just refer to it as a "Pin" and "Hole". ) To start, I would probably drill a small "pilot" hole ( perhaps 1/8" ) in the main branch, at whatever point, ... and whatever angle, ... I wanted the smaller branch to orriginate from. Now, ... again depending on the actual size of the parts, ... I'd determine the most desireable size for the "hole" in the main branch, and then punch it out to that size. ( This will create some "swelling" in the main branch, ... which will be desireable at the end of the process. ) The last step to prepare the main branch to receive the smaller branch, ... is to create a sort-of countersunk "dimple" at the end of the hole you've punched, ... on the opposite side of the main branch, from where the smaller branch will originate. You could use a blunt, round-end punch, ... or a big "Center" punch, ... or you could drill the "countersink" into the main branch, with a 90 degree countersink cutter. The idea is to create a small "cup" in the back side of the main branch, ... for the "Pin" end of the smaller branch, that protrudes through the punched hole, ... to expand into, when it's peened over. What you will have done, ... is "rivet" the smaller branch into the main branch, ... without having the rivet head showing above the surface of the main branch. To prepare the "Pin" on the end of the smaller branch, ... you want to neck it down to fit into the punched "Hole", in the main branch. If you feel lucky, you can do this "hot", ... or just grind a shoulder on the end of the smaller branch, to form the "Pin". If you're going "old school" the "Pin" needs to be long enough, so that there will be enough material protruding through the "Hole" to form the head of the rivet, ... and fill the countersunk area. Or, ... I might be very tempted to make the Pin just long enough to come flush with the backside of the main branch, ... and then weld it in with an arc welder, ... filling in the countersink with weld. Having done that, you could just grind the backside smooth, ... or heat it and hammer it into the finish you prefer. Either way, ... now is the time to heat and hammer out the swelled area around the joint, until you get a "natural looking", blended surface. Good Luck. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 SmoothBore, Thank you for taking the time and making this matter crystal clear. I will try it. You got me thinking that this technique of the punched hole and a "tenon" through it and laid on the other side could be used to hold the pieces in place to forge weld them. So could a rivet. Never tried this, forge welding rivited pieces together. Again, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 It has long been a technique to use horseshoe nails or similar to rivet pieces together to hold them in situ whilst welding, and in many cases preferable to wiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Dave Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 I'll give it a go. Seems like an interesting process. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 John B, Thanks for chipping in this confirmation. Would you recommend drilling the holes or forging them in order to get the swelling which would become a form of upsetting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Would you recommend drilling the holes or forging them in order to get the swelling which would become a form of upsetting? As usual I am afraid, no one definitive answer, it depends on the situation and the facilities you have at your disposal, sizes of materials, desired outcome etc You now get to a bit of a hypothetical explanation which misleads from good recommended practice and answering the original post, which has already been well covered with alternative methods to achieve the desired results. The swelling you refer to is not necessarily a form of upsetting, merely a displacement of parent material, and this in itself could cause problems, depending on material you are using, and whether punching or slitting and drifting. The inserted piece through this 'forged' area replaces what has been altered during the forging op, you are relying on the abutting parts to give excess material Have a considered look and see what you think would work best for the particular situation, branch welding is the easier way to go for building up multi piece items. If you are adding bits to an existing piece then each is a unique situation and has to be considered as such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yves Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 John B As you said, the subject matter of my first post has been well covered and I am satisfied. I'll heat up the forge tomorrow and give it a go. Thanks John B and everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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