ShawnW Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 Sorry, I meant undergraduate degree, don't want to get ahead of myself now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 How many burners? Question back at ya, what do you intend to make? An even better reason to go to Balcones Forge or get w/ a local blacksmith to get a better idea of what you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry W. Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 You really should get with Balcones Forge. There a lot members as well as board members in and around San Antonio. The experience varies from nothing to amazing. They are very willing to share this knowledge and experience. We are in the process of building 10 fully equipped forging stations for our workshops. We have our workshops the week prior to our big demo (March). This year we have Mark Aspery and he will be covering forge welding and joinery. We are meeting later this month at Steephollow Forgeworks in Bryan. Lyle Wynn will be there early and possibly late with the workshops that they are having. These are great opportunities to see what is out there and get a better idea of what will suit your needs. People tailgate at these events and it is possible that you will find what you need there. Now about the forge - David Starr is a Balcones Forge member and has worked very hard to support the group. There are quite a few of our members that have a Chili Forge and I have yet to hear a complaint. I have seen quite a few of them in action and if I were going to buy a ready built, ready to go forge, this is the direction that I would go. I still use the first propane forge that I purchased for another member. It has and does work well but, it lacks efficiency. I have plans to build two of different sizes with efficiency as my main concern. I am looking forward to the build. If you are interested, PM me and I will get you my contact information, Jerry W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 In the back seat of my car is a fully functional one-brick forge fired by a beat-up old pencil torch. Until I get my smithy back online, it and an old sledgehammer head will keep me productive. That said, I'll never be one to deny another man his excuses. Do as thou will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I think Vaughn T and Thomas Powers have the right of it. I may be able to save some money by just buying a commercially produced burner and looking up a recipe for a gas forge here on the website. And Frosty, I cant start anything until the 17th at the earliest as that is the first Monday I will be finished with my graduate degree, so all questions are getting answered now befote I get going. So now I guess the question is, how many burners do I want? No. You are only getting answers to the questions you know to ask. Once you get going, there will be a multitude of questions that at this point, you don't even know you want to ask yet :D How many burners? At least one. But, are you sure a gas forge is what you want to buy or build? Don't forget solid fuel forges. Folks build their own coal and charcoal forges too :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iceman_713 Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I think for alot of us here besides the cost of building vs buying unless you get a smokin score at the scrap yard or in the classifieds or on craigslist then i say go for it but from what I have found on there people want sometimes double to triple what the forge or other item they are selling is worth, the second part of it i think is the satisfaction of being able to say yeah i built this forge for under a couple hundred dollars and though it may not look pretty it is built by my hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I may be thinking of someone else but didn't you ask me this question in a PM? Did you ever reply with the diensions of the forge and what you intend to use it for? If I am thinking of someone else I need to know what the forge's shape ad size is and what you need it to do. I'll be more than happy to help you buy or build something that will do what you need. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Frosty: the only person I've pm'd on this site was Glenn. Got any recommendations for a blower manufacturer? As far as dimensions, naturally aspirated burners are good for 300 cu. in., for a 3/4 or 1 " burner i dont remember which size. What size are blown burners good for? If I use a 20 gal propane tank, are they almost 600 cu.in. with or without kaewool? How many burners will get me up to welding heat? Also are blown burners more efficient than aspirated when it comes to propane use? I should probably start another thread and continue searching for some of these answers but you wanted to know what I was planning! Thanks for all your input everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Yes, you have to build your own forge. And make all of your own hand hammers, tongs, punches, chisels, top and bottom tools, guillotine tools, power hammers, treadle hammers, fly presses, and 9000 pounds of associated tooling. You simply must weld up and hard face your own line of custom anvils (from 5 to 500 pounds), bench vises, leg vises, swage blocks, etc. Along the way, you will become an accomplished welder, machinist, and millwright. Only then can you call yourself a blacksmith. All because you saw somebody* on the internet do it. Sounds strange when you say it out loud, doesn't it? *Actually, several thousand somebodies, each doing one or two things. I used to be able to fit everything I needed for a demo in a 4 cylinder Honda station wagon, with room left over. Figure out what you actually want to accomplish, and then acquire the tools and skills to do just that. Or you will end up like me, with a shipping container full of stuff, waiting to build a shop to put it in. :wacko: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Build or don't build, as you please, and as you can afford. My forge cost me all of about 20 bucks, including the liner, and maybe 3 or 4 hours of my time. If I had to convince my wife to let me scrape the money together to buy a "plug and play" gas forge, I'd still be waiting. Some of it depends on intent, and how far you plan to take things. If you know what you're doing, and blacksmithing's lucrative enough for you that you're making your living off of it (you lucky so and so), why spend the time and effort setting up your tooling instead of making money? If you're a hobbiest like me, why not make your own stuff? Heck, half the joy in it for me is the pride in using tools that I shaped with my own hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 you could make a bean can forge for just a few $ to have a play with and you will have it as a back up later if you need it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 the first Blacksmithing I learned from said it best "Just Do it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Good grief Shawn, considering all the time you've spent airing on the inconsequential you could've mowed enough lawns to buy a forge. You don't even need a drill motor to build a working gas forge but who cares. It's in your court to spend more time looking for something you can point to as a personal . . . whatever, or you could just do IT. The only "Superior" that counts in a true craft is: better, faster, cheaper, easier. Improve any one and your profit margin increases. How you count your profit is your business. For the record, NO THING about manual blacksmithing is "necessary" Virtually anything we make can be bought at a fraction of the cost almost anywhere in the USA. WE do this because we want to, personally making steel plastic and forming it to MY will sings to my soul. But that's me. In short do whatever you want, dig a hole make a bellows from a paper bag and burn deer crap or spend tens of thousands on an industrial forge. The only person it'll make any difference to is YOU. If YOU want to build a gas forge and need a hand, just ask we'll be happy to help. If not . . . Frosty The Lucky. AMEN ! AND , Thank You ! ! Frosty, I love the Very last Two Words as it lets one finish the sentence as one wants too. <Grins> Blessings Brother and Best Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 In summation.....the guy has the $$ to buy a ready made GAS forge; apparently does NOT want to build a forge, gas or solid fuel; so I guess his next step is to figure out how to use it when he gets it. No need trying to convince him otherwise; it's his show. Then, the questions will be pouring in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Frosty: the only person I've pm'd on this site was Glenn. Got any recommendations for a blower manufacturer? As far as dimensions, naturally aspirated burners are good for 300 cu. in., for a 3/4 or 1 " burner i dont remember which size. What size are blown burners good for? If I use a 20 gal propane tank, are they almost 600 cu.in. with or without kaewool? How many burners will get me up to welding heat? Also are blown burners more efficient than aspirated when it comes to propane use? I should probably start another thread and continue searching for some of these answers but you wanted to know what I was planning! Thanks for all your input everyone! Okay, now I wonder if that guy will ever get back. The general rules of thumb go like this. Burner construction is based on these basic ratios. Everything is based on the throat diameter, usually where the burner tube screws into whatever is used for the air intake/jet mount. In the case of the "T" it's where the pipe screws into the "T". Using a 3/4" tube as the parent dimension, the tube needs to be 8-9x the throat dia. or 6-7" for this example. A 1" tube wants 8-9" tube length. The next important ratio is jet placement, commercial burners never put the jet closer than 1/2x the throat diameter and are usually back much farther. The last one is air intake area. I find 1.25 or 1.5 x the bore dia. works nicely. I use a pipe thread protector instead of a "flare" on the output end of the burner tube and include it's length in the tube length calcs. It expands the sq in cross section of the tube and so increases both induction and slows the air/fuel mix stabilizing the flame. The rough interior of the threads protector cause turbulence but it's far enough down the tube it doesn't inhibit induction but does help as a little final mixing. It's all in those ratios, you can make it as big or small as you like or need. The only jet sizes I have off the top of my head are: 1/2" burner likes 0.025" mig tip, 3/4" likes a 0.035" mig tip and a 1" likes a .45" mig tip. When we were brainstorming home made burners Ron liked drilling holes in a cross pipe for his jet and I started using mig tips so I could adjust jet diameters a lot easier. I'm lazy that way. When Mike Porter got involved he determined the length of the mig tip made the propane flow in a laminar manner and really improved the shape of the gas jet and induction. He once credited me with being brilliant for coming up with that and I had to tell him it was serendipity, I just wanted it to be as easy to make and adjust as I could. It worked out well on both counts. Getting into how many burners you'll need has everything to do with furnace volume in the burn chamber. One well tuned burnerwill bring about 600-700 cu/in to welding temp for per 1" tube diameter. A 3/4" dia burner being about 1/2 the area will bring about 1/2 the volume to welding heat. Then comes the other important factor, chamber shape. Using a freon tank as the shell the chamber will be what I call fairly cubical or spherical, not that it's either one but I mean it's about the same length as diameter or length width and depth if we're talking rectangular furnace. I hope that's not as confusing as it sounds and REALLY hope someone will tell me what the correct term is. Being even you can get away with one burner of the right size. However if the chamber is odd shaped, even long and narrow you're better off using more smaller sized burners. For example I made my too big variable geometry forge with the idea I'd be working on pieces of wide size and shape range. What the forge is is a refractory table 18"sq. with a matching refractory lid on a jack. There are 4 3/4" burners aimed down through the lid in each quarter. I divide it into sections with fire brick walls that can be moved to make different shaped and sized chambers. In reality, after years of use I've never made an odd shape. Primarily I use two quadrants about 4.5" x 4.5" x 18" for about 360 cu/in. Being this long and narrow means I have one HOT spot under the burner while the rest grades from welding yellow to bright orange when up to temp. The spot under the burner tends to melt the fire brick if left running long enough so the burner's good and hot. To be up front though, the melty spot in the hard fire brick floor is much gooier than when it first started melting because I've been getting more flux on it lately. Still the burner melted the fresh brick without help from flux but not a lot, just s soft vitrified spot about 2" dia. How much volume is a gun (blown) burner good for? I don't mess with gun's much but from taking a tape measure to a few when I was first trying to figure this out I'd say pretty much the same. I have a Johnson Gas appliance #122a I've never used and it has 4 burner nozzles in the chamber and they equal to about 1 sq/in cross section per 850 cu/in chamber volume. A 1" dia. round nozzle is 0.7854 sq/in per 750 cu/in chamber volume. I don't remember the makes of the couple others I measured but they ran pretty close. One thing about a gun is you can crank the blower and gas up to get more fuel and air in the chamber at once so it should get hotter. However fuel air in must be matched by exhaust out so I don't know if the furnace would get hotter or just blow more heat through. I've never done more than think and wonder about that one. I hope I haven't just made this more confusing, I got interrupted and ended up finishing this in a couple sessions over most of the day. Sorry if it's a disjointed ramble. Let me know and I'll try doing better. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry W. Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Wow Frosty, you really went way above and beyond on this one. The support that we find on the site is tremendous. Thanks, Stay warm, Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Frosty, thank you for that excellent post. And the word you are seeking might be "equidimensional." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Awe heck Jerry I started on it Saturday night and didn't finish till around midnight Sunday. I had to do a lot of memory sorting and editing to get it even that coherent. And. . . Oh yeah, I can be a bit talkative. <grin> Thank you Thingmaker, equidimensional works. The [art of the term I remember has polygon in it and quidimensional polygon will work a treat. thank you. Be well all, I just filled the stove and am off to bed. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well, I'm off to take my finals, hopefully I'll be back on here a little bit tonight and a whole lot more after tomorrow's last final. Once I'm graduated I'll have to find a new job and pass my boards but other than that I should be able to focus on this project a whole lot more. Thanks Frosty for all the advice and everyone who provided their opinion. I'm thinking of running a blown ribbon burner, I'm going to keep track of everything and take pics so hopefully I'll have something completed within the next month or two. I've got a lot of honey-do's that have been waiting for me to finish my degree before I get started on them so with all this I shouldn't ever be bored. Thanks again for all the help guys! ShawnW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 May you have success with your finals and boards! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 thingmaker3: Thank you, I passed my last test, have a pinning ceremony on Friday and will hopefully take my boards w/in the next six weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron quake Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I’m a rather a new smith of about 3 years. So here is my 2 cents. I started out buying an old crappy anvil that some dude took a torch to. A small two burner propane forge and a hammer. This was just to see if I’d like it. Well, lots of equipment and tools later I guess I sure do, but not without all these other tools. I could never do what I like without a power hammer and the other machines. All the other tools just make is faster, funner an more efficient, thats just me. So if you can afford it, get to beating on hot metal ASAP, you might think the whole blacksmithing thing sucks. Oh and the crappy little forge just got replaced with a larger 3 burner unit I designed and built, but I heated lots and lots of metal in the first one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron quake Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 The other thing to consider is, rarely is ANYTHING built for the first time as simple as it first appears. So if your time is worth something, take your estimate of how long its going to take and double or triple it and you might be close. I have a lots more than three years of building equipment to know this to be very true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caladin Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Dude, have fun, if that means buying it and you can, then go for it, if you want to build on later you always can,they are not that hard. Cal- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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