Perceived value

[Joel OF]

I'm becoming aware of the general public's perception of "high value", basically what they'll pay more money for.
In my opinion it's the things their eye immediately gets drawn to -  finish, texture, elaborate shapes - whilst things like precision engineering can be completely overlooked. No one ever sees every design detail in one hit.

What details do you think have a higher perceived value and what's your feelings towards them?

[John McPherson]

This has been a big topic, especially for those with tables at the Blade Show, etc. No matter where you are and what you have on display, some things remain constant.

 

(1) Gestalt - which is a fancy way of saying that first overall feeling that one gets upon seeing something. As the old saying goes, you only get one chance to make a good first impression. This applies to the whole booth: the lighting, the tablecloth, the displays in the booth, the individual items in the displays, local dress code, and the face(s) behind the table. If you expect anybody to stop and linger over your wares, it all has to be warm, clean, friendly, and inviting. Think of it as speed dating.

 

(2) The Trophy. Now that you have got them to slow down, maybe even stop, there ought to be a centerpiece on the table. It does not have to be for sale, just an example of your best work to date. Something that demands to be picked up and/or examined from all sides. It needs to be:

 

A - Symmetrical - the human eye judges beauty and perfection by this first, and scanning human faces and bodies are our daily training. The eye is drawn to flaws and imperfections. Left/right mirror images, Golden Ratio rectangles, Fibonacci spirals all come into play.

 

B - Shiny - even if the item has a textured finish, it needs to be cleaned and bright, waxed or otherwise sealed.  Why, you ask? Keep cleaning supplies on hand to wipe off fingerprints and the little dots of spittle that people leave when they talk. :wacko: That's why.

 

C - Sinuous - straight lines are used to show brute force, shock and awe. In art they are only used for accenting curves. There are no straight lines in nature, and good work has an organic feel to it.

 

If you have gotten them to hang around this long, you can give 'em your spiel on the history, design, engineering, construction, materials, etc.

 

When you have them on the ropes, you can talk price. B)

[jmccustomknives]

Lets not forget the #1 reason why people will pay more for something.  Because they think some one else wants it.  It didn't take me long to figure out that people want to collect blades that others collect and will pay a lot for them.  Here in the States we call it , "Keeping up with the Jones' ".

 

So as an artist one needs to create a percieved apperance of demand.  So for a bladesmith a sign on his table, "everything is sold, taking orders" or some such.  Works every time.  To bad I don't like playing those games.

[DSW]

Interesting thoughts. Good comments that explain well many thikngs I think of, but couldn't put into words as well. I also hadn't considered how it looked from the perspective of someone working with blades.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of the "traditional" smith. I find it some how ironic that in times past, a good blacksmith worked hard not to leave any marks, often using flatters and so on to finish work, while today many people want that "hammered" look, and will pay more for a piece that looks "hand forged".

 

I will agree that it's the deliberate marks and distortions that are important, vs just randomly smashing metal. The comments John listed above in "A', "B", and "C" all apply even down to the individual hammer marks on an item. Marks need to be done deliberately as part of your look and finish, vs just randomly happening.

 

 

Under "gestalt", I'd add the experience itself. Someone with a bunch of hook laying on a table is one thing. Interacting with a smith doing a demo making the same hooks is another. People pay not just for the hook, but for the "experience" of standing there watching "their" hook transform from a hunk of plain steel into an item individually crafted for themselves alone. A hook most people wouldn't pay $5 for at Walmart suddenly takes on a whole new value when they see it heated and formed before their eyes to their specifications. "Would you like a twist on this? Is this long enough for where you want to hang your plant? I'm going to curl this end over to match that other piece you were just looking at so that they match..."

 

I'd also toss out that having a "name" in the business doesn't hurt. No one is going to pay me to sign some shirt, but pro athletes can make money doing so. A piece of metal made by "John Doe" my not have any value, but the same piece made by Yellin could be worth some serious money just for the name. Your name doesn't have to be that big either. Get a reputation for doing good work, on time and satisfying customers, and you'll pick up work over John Doe many times if your work is of similar quality, simply on the recommendations of past customers.

[Rich Hale]

Putting a sold sign out if not true is first step to f
business failure. Word spreads fast. B
Some folks do sell out fast. They have made their mark via their work. Not a gimmick.

[John McPherson]

Another point is that less is more. Don't oversell, over promise, or overload the senses. Far better to have 1 or 10 first class items on display than 110 mediocre ones.

 

The late W W would put *one* tomahawk on his table, sit back, and jaw with passersby. Someone would walk by two or three times, discuss the hawk, prices and delivery dates for a custom order, etc., then come back and buy it. He would go out for a smoke, come back, pull another one out of the crate full under the table, and sit back.

[Everything Mac]

I agree with DSW's comments about the "experience" of the buy. 

 

Where I often demo, we make miniature "axes" for kids at £2 a go. They're just a short length of mild steel with wrap around eye and then cut to about an inch long - the blade is splayed out and then bent so it sits roughly central to the eye. with a twig handle. 

 

We could have a dozen sitting out ready to be taken away but more often than not, folks would like to see it being made. 

 

I tend to throw in a bit of - I guess you could call it showmanship, saying that last year I made one of these in 54 seconds. usually met with much ooooh ahhhh.  And then I get one of the crowd to time me from the very first hammer blow to when the axe is quenched. 

 

Current record stands at 37 seconds. The folks seem to enjoy it. 

 

I wonder if you might get the customer to select his or her particular piece of steel. That might add something to it as well. 

 

 

 

Beyond that I can only echo what others have said. - Have a wonder around a craft fair and take note of what stalls you stop at and why. 

 

All the best 

Andy

[jmccustomknives]

Putting a sold sign out if not true is first step to f
business failure. Word spreads fast. B
Some folks do sell out fast. They have made their mark via their work. Not a gimmick.

This is true, but if you put a generic, nicely crafted item down and tried to sell it what could you get.  In comparison put a famous name, that the only change.  How much did it go up?  It's all about perception for most folks.  And lets not forget, there are games that are played in all of the arts to create positive perception (advertising, getting work published, having good reviews in magazines and such).  There are only two reasons people buy stuff, they think they have a use for it or it has a perceived value (some body else wants it).  If a maker has 50 of the same item or an example to order I still believe he's going to sell more orders at the high price just due to the "collector's" preception.

 Andy, one of the best raquets I've ever seen was a guy who made miniature horse shoes with a name stamped in it.  He'd get a kid "appentice" to work his bellows as he made one with their name.  After he's finished with his "appentice" the parents had to buy the item.  lol

[anvil]

Good topic. Got a day or so for my elaboration?
The general public's perception. that's a loaded question. The general public that goes to crafts fairs, etc has a perception of forged iron from what they see via cheap imports and mass produced stuff with stamped in peen marks. For this market, no matter your level of craftsmanship, your joinery and skill level will be perceived but will be only a minor factor in value. If this is your market, keep your ball peen sharp and "give em petertracks". On the other hand if you use this avenue as your intro level and consider time spent here as your own self-imposed apprenticeship,limit "texture", stress finish, max hammer control, push your craftsmanship above all, and educate your clients, in the long run this will pay off in spades. If you choose to max the $ value of this market you will do ok, but it will be cost ineffective to focus on "refining your details". The pathway to architectural comissions will also be much harder to attain. Please do understand that "back in the day" there was a reason for a ~7~ year apprenticeship. That reason has not changed.

The other market, those willing to pay top $ for max quality. Peen marks get you the door, no you will never see the door. When asked if I will put peen marks on a piece and make it look "handforged", my reply is " did you ever see a trim carpenter put "petertracks" on his moldings? Whelp I don't put them in my iron either".

This market(quality,not quantity) is not educated as to what fine iron is any more than the other. However they are very aware of what's readily avalable, and they don't want it!

I believe there is a subjective "feel" that goes into craftsmanship. This perception/feel is there in both markets. The architectural/art/craftsmanship market absolutely wants top value for their money. If you can educate these people to the details-mortis&tennon,collars,rivits, forgewelds,applied texture(as opposed to peenmarks),champfered edges, finish,and unique transitions, you got the job no matter your "name".

Whew, not sure if this is what you are looking for.

You as a fledgling craftsman have "perceived" a majorly important client type detail here. This creats pathway choices for you. Its almost a "catch22", but not quite. It is a fact that the "quality" market will not at this time, beat a path to your door. Also, the "quantity" market will not pay for the skills you may not have now and Have to have for the other.

So you must choose your pathway. In truth, both are great choices. Just recognize the fork in the road.

So what's the answer? Welp, each finds his own way. My way was to stress my learning,stress technique 'til it came easy, and pay for my education by pricing my early stuff to fit the market of the moment no matter my time spent or techniques used. Interestingly enough, about 7 years into the deal, I began getting intro level architectural work. And I had a great enough command of techniques that I began to make reasonable money vs time spent per job.

Hope this helps

[DSW]

The other market, those willing to pay top $ for max quality. Peen marks get you the door, no you will never see the door. When asked if I will put peen marks on a piece and make it look "handforged", my reply is " did you ever see a trim carpenter put "petertracks" on his moldings? Whelp I don't put them in my iron either".
 

 

 

 

Maybe it's the area I'm in, or the bias of the people I've trained under that gives me a different view here. These people are more Arts and Crafts focused. They want to see each piece as an individual, like an item of nature and that means that the marks and texture are a part of the process and help individualize a piece vs a smooth mass produced item. In your molding example, they WANT those hand made plane marks. While the wood may be glass smooth, on the hand made doors, the surface is not "flat". There's a texture and surface finish that really can't be duplicated any way except by the hand of a craftsman. Nature is not perfect, and they don't want that look in the items they buy either.

 

There's a difference between marks made by a sloppy worker, and a finish left by a competent craftsman. I remember reading about the craftsman who worked on the Bryn Athyn Cathedral near where I took my classes, that they had more trouble making things individual vs mass producing them. Maybe I gravitate towards this idea both from the work on the Cathedral I posted up in another thread, and from the fact that for the last 20+ years that time period of Architecture and design has always fascinated me and been my favorite. I can spend hours looking at the details in a Frank Furness building, early Frank Lloyd Wright home, etc.

 

 

 

I'll admit that the Arts and Crafts movement is somewhat of a niche market. However I see the revival of hand forged architectural work as a resurgence of the same ideals that created that movement in the 1st  place. The movement away from mass, machine produced cookie cutter items. Instead a shift back towards craftsmanship and individual work. Those that understand the underlying principals are willing to accept "honest" marks in a quality piece. I'm not talking about simply peaning a piece to just make surface marks, I'm talking about the honest marks and distortions that come from drawing down a piece from larger stock as part of the forming process.

[Joel OF]

Interesting points, though mainly points geared towards work to be sold at markets/fairs. What about the same question but specifically about bespoke one-off items?

E.g. there's a guy who wants me to make a couple of handrails up to his front door, he's given me an idea of what he's after but he's 99% left to me design what I think is right & trusts my judgement. Now if I was designing them for myself I'd punch & drift holes, rivet, mortise & tenon, & collar...but those details would probably be completely overlooked by him & he'd probably prefer to see scrolls & big shapes so he can see where his money has gone.

I think in the main people want immediacy, they want to be immediately visually satisfied & they'll pay more for that than they would for subtlety.

[Dave Budd]

if you want him to appreciate the traditional construction techniques, then sell them to him. He won't know what the difference between a £50 piece and a £150 piece using more hand work unless you point out the visual aspects as awell as any structural ones. For example, the punched and drifted holes will look more organic and flow better that a welded or drilled version; or tennons can be peened over and look much better than a welded connection, etc, etc.

 

Offer him a modern version and a more traditional looking version. see which he likes and quote for them then (not before he sees). If you don't have any examples to show him, then show him photos of other people's work for an idea (maybe on some very posh and elaborate piece of work like a palace gate)

[tzonoqua]

I think what Dave says is bang on. If you want to be making traditional work then you need to sell it. I have found the majority of people don't really care whether something is traditional they just want it to look nice and function properly. It also depends on the budget of the person commissioning work. For the past year, depending on the item I'm quoting for, I usually do a quote for traditional joinery, and one without (ie forged and fabricated) and explain with images the differences. So far I have only had one person go for paying slightly more for traditionally joined. I find it's mostly only blacksmiths and sometimes other craftspeople that are concerned about it. Sort of like if you wanted to go and buy a ring. Would you be concerned whether it was cast, or fabricated, or even make from PMC? Or would you just be concerned that it looked good and functioned well? 

[Francis Trez Cole]

perceived value It is all about education when I go to meet with a client I bring some small pieces of joints (riveted, wedged and collard . Then 2 pieces of thin aluminum welded together. This is what I use and this is what the other shops uses. Then it is listing to them if they want the cast finials on the top of there fence that is the look they want. even though you can do a real cool picket that is not the point. Had a client that wanted a rack to put plants on twice the size she could get at the store. My price was fair but more than she wanted to spend. Down here people will spend 40 thousand on a kitchen and they do not cook. but then turn a round and buy fence in a box from home depot. Then all the do is complain when the stuff falls apart.

[John B]

Interesting points, though mainly points geared towards work to be sold at markets/fairs. What about the same question but specifically about bespoke one-off items?

E.g. there's a guy who wants me to make a couple of handrails up to his front door, he's given me an idea of what he's after but he's 99% left to me design what I think is right & trusts my judgement. Now if I was designing them for myself I'd punch & drift holes, rivet, mortise & tenon, & collar...but those details would probably be completely overlooked by him & he'd probably prefer to see scrolls & big shapes so he can see where his money has gone.

I think in the main people want immediacy, they want to be immediately visually satisfied & they'll pay more for that than they would for subtlety.

 

 

Ask what their budget for the project is, and that will give you an idea whether or not you can afford to take it on.

 

You are not designing it for yourself, punching and drifting holes does not necessarily make a better stronger job than fabricating, tailor the task to the circumstances, that includes financial as well as aesthetic.

 

Never assume if someone can afford the money you are asking for, and get a deposit.

 

Also think seriously about a "Terms and Conditions" document.

 

If people want a one off, then they are usually preparesd to wait for it.

 

There are mainly three things you get if a hurry, babies, bent bumpers(fenders) and bad decisions, and you don't need any of them !!!

[Wroughton]

Ask what their budget for the project is, and that will give you an idea whether or not you can afford to take it on.

 

 

 

 

I was asked once if I was a used car salesman when I asked what the budget is. I'm a little quick to anger at times like this and this multi millionaire wasn't happy with my response in front of the architect and builder. 

 

For anything more than piecework it's still the most important thing to ask. If they can't afford it, OR, they think that you, as a smith, should work for car washing wages then there isn't any point in talking anymore. It helps if the "professionals"  you work with understand this also. 

 

As DSW stated, we put hammer marks on now so the average eye can spot that the metal is worked. Out here in the wild west, HEAVY fire scale

is the look of choice for rustic wares. Open up the air blast and cook 1/16" of scale onto everything which would make most smith's want to cry.

It goes against my nature to fake up my metal. I'd rather be welding but the scaly jobs pay well. 

 

JO, UNIQUE is the word. 

[metalmangeler]

My thought on increasing perceived value is to make items that I can forge more quickly than most would think then they think they are paying me mininum wage while I think they are paying me well. To do this takes a number of years to find the methods and projects that I can turnout efficeintly. I have seen a number of blacksmith items for sale and from a perspective that the customer does not have I can see that a lot of time has been put into some items to sell these at a rate that you could make money at would take some real sales skills I seem to lack.

    An example of this method could be seen by looking at the tongs and spring swedges that Grant used to make, from watching a few of the vidios that he posted and thinking through the  process it was obvious that he did very well making these tools selling them to people who should have been profficent making them for themselves. The facts were that either the customer thought that it would not be worth their time to make them for themselves or they assumed that Grant had more time in the item than he was charging them for, I expect that many of his customers would have hessitated to buy if they thought that he might be making $200 per hour. They would have thought they were over paying, but it was still a great deal.

   Back to your project I would expect the scrolls might be the way to go, I would be thinking that putting a leaf on the end is going to make it look like more time than a taper though the reality is either is 1 heat. traditional or fabricated would be up to the customer but either should be accomplished with skill and effiecency, other wise you are just adding to your schooling. A way to make traditional more effiecent would to be finding the joint that works well for you then as much as possible standardize that joint in this project. This would be done by say making collared joints of the same size rather than needing to make 5 different sizes for 1 small railing.

[basher]

It is a complicated thing.

 I used to make mirrors and all the work is in the corners, big mirrors take the same time as small ones , glass is cheap. 

 However big mirrors can command a much greater price. as there is a perceived value in the size.

 I had a ford production engineer here on a class and the same is true for cars, the bigger they are the more profit is in them.

 

I have found that people have quite strong ideas of what they will pay and if you are greatly below that or above that then they will pass on the deal.

 

In my experience clients like the big picture and the idea of hand made/ forged/ crafted but do not give a monkeys about the details...

[2Tim215]

In my experience clients like the big picture and the idea of hand made/ forged/ crafted but do not give a monkeys about the details...

 

I can only wish for clients that want the "hand made/ forged" look - here it's all about perfect fit and finish, polished to perfection supermodels that live in draws. Something that I am just not prepared to do. I like the hand made look that is made well to the best of ones ability - as you can guess I am talking knives here - so enough ranting.

 

When it comes to perceived value in knives, art or anything else it will always be each to there own, that's why having a good stock of various items to showcase in ones respective discipline is always good as there is always someone out there that will buy - try and cater to all and never drop your price, the right buyer always comes eventually.

[MOblacksmith0530]

I have really enjoyed the various answers in this thread. It has been something I have struggled with in all the events I do as well as orders online or on the phone.

It has to have the appearance of hand forged. I make a little of everything and one of the things that has been the hardest for some of the people I have taught to get is it has to please the eye. That doesn't always mean please your eye. I make a fair amount of knives (they sell and I make a profit on them easily) I used to make them really nice and polish them to perfection. you could shave with the knife and see your reflection to shave as well in the finish. I could never get the money out of them at the shows (not knife shows). I had one laying in the case that was half finished and needed more grinding and polishing and the guy insisted that was the knife for him. I heat treated it and sold it. I then started to mix them up and sold about 70% rough finished to fine finished. With other work hooks, candle holders etc they want to see the hand forged pieces but it has to please the eye. proper proportion and flow of the piece. I look at some of the best work out there and it is eye catching and eye APPEALING. Eye catching ugly doesn't really sell.

The best suggestion I would make is does it "look" right. If it doesn't then fix it. I still find pieces I made years ago that I am ashamed of.

[Eddie Mullins]

Basher I have seen the same through my wifes wire pieces, that for the consumer, same size is percieved value. However its been my experience that some times the smaller versions take as long if not longer becuase the same processes now become more tedious. You must then price according to the effort required for the small peice and the larger pieces go up accordingly, thus profits as well.  BTW - I think I may suggest she, or we make some mirrors, thanks : ) .

 

I think the percieved value is tied to the percieved value/recognition/reputation of the smith/artist as well as the piece.

[basher]

mirrors worked great for me . people always have wall space . floor space not so much.

[anvil]

Great topic. I do believe this makes the main point in my post. There are as many ways to become the Smith you choose to be as there are Smiths!

If your passion and challenge is traditional joinery then go for it!

If your passion and challenge is a mix of contemporary and traditional joinery, then go for it.

I also believe that for a Craftsman of any sort to attempt to emulate modern production is cost prohibitive,and the opposite holds as true.
Also, let your work please you first and formost. After all that's the primary reason they are knocking on your door. In my opinion, you will never truly be satisfied with your work, and neither will your clients if you don't hold this thought first and formost. Like a really good man once told me, if you don't, all you will have is peanutbutter. You do know what peanutbutter is, right? It ain't peanuts, and it ain't butter, its peanutbutter.

And finally, I have some of my first pieces in use in my shop to the day. Coyote Ugly they are! However I am as proud pf them as my pieces done today. I do know the blood, sweat, and tears that went into them. Without them I would not Be Here Now.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

You may want to search for a thread that was titled IIRC, How do you price your work. It covers perceived value fairly well.

[Rich Hale]

"This is true, but if you put a generic, nicely crafted item down and tried to sell it what could you get.  In comparison put a famous name, that the only change.  How much did it go up?  It's all about perception for most folks.  And lets not forget, there are games that are played in all of the arts to create positive perception (advertising, getting work published, having good reviews in magazines and such).  There are only two reasons people buy stuff, they think they have a use for it or it has a perceived value (some body else wants it).  If a maker has 50 of the same item or an example to order I still believe he's going to sell more orders at the high price just due to the "collector's" preception.

 Andy, one of the best raquets I've ever seen was a guy who made miniature horse shoes with a name stamped in it.  He'd get a kid "appentice" to work his bellows as he made one with their name.  After he's finished with his "appentice" the parents had to buy the item.  lol"

 

I have to reply to this late as I have been away. If you put any kind of name on a generic item other than your own it is simply theft. If you put a name of a well know artist on it it is almost a sure way to the end of your work in this area. Folks that know the name will see it as a fraud right away and as I said earlier word spreads fast. I think that anyone interested in truly spending some time in studying this  part of the business needs to spend some time where folks display and sell their wares. Above someone mentioned the Atlanta Blade Show, If blades is wot you do then make a point to go. Buy the three day pass, as you will not possibly see a small portion in a few hours or likely in the whole time of the show. I encourage you to take a coupe of your knives along and compare them to wot you will see. Ask if any of the makers will give you their thoughts on wot you have created. Look up purveyors and see if they will do the same. Ask them if they will sell your work. Then back to the issue...think again about putting any of the front row makers name on your generic work and think again about wot that may do not only to the value of your piece but again,,wot will it do to your reputation. And by the way get there real early on opening day. You may indeed find that many famous name makers tables are empty and have a sold out sign displayed. The evening before and early mornings day of shows there are a lot of sales. Makers and buyers are in one place and do that. The Blade Show is the biggest that I know of..but there are many regional shows that have the same kind of learning experience only on a smaller scale.