L. M. REESE Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Howdy, I am New to the forum but not new to blacksmithing. I am a full time farrier. One of my horseshoeing clients asked if I could make him some small railroad spikes to use on his live steam railroad. He uses mine rail, I think it is 20 pound rail. The spikes would be made from 3/8" square bar. They need to be about 3" long. I am having trouble figuring out how to forge the head. Has anyone done this type of thing before? Any ideas on how to proceed.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Make an upsetting matrix for a large postvise, upset as hot as you can! Frankly buying mine spikes should be as LOT cheaper than making them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 maybe get a batch of old knives and.... Sorry I had to be the first to say it, with all the people making Spikes into Psuedo Knifes... look into the hobby RR sites for small gauge. Welcome to the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Greetings LM, I think you could buy them on line.. If I were to make them I would start with 1/2 round bar and draw down the shank to 3/8 .. It is a lot easier than upsetting a smaller bar... That way you could work them off a longer bar without the use of tongs and slice them off like bologna . Then finish the sharp end... Not so hard... Good luck Forge on and make beautiful things Jim I Forgot my manners ... Welcome to IFI and please complete your profile and general location Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. M. REESE Posted November 11, 2013 Author Share Posted November 11, 2013 Thanks for the replies. I am almost sure he could buy them cheaper than I could make them except the freight charges. Plus it seems like a fun project. What do you mean by "upsetting matrix"? I was kinda thinking about building a big nail header and trying to shape the heads like a nail but just making the head one sided. P.S. Jim coke, my profile is updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Actually freight charges might not be too bad. You can use Flat Rate USPS boxes that can hold a lot of small spikes, and the weight limit for domestic use is 70 lbs. If you can find a supplier, they should be able to package them in these boxes. 70 lbs box full anywhere in the country would be no more than $16.75. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. M. REESE Posted November 12, 2013 Author Share Posted November 12, 2013 Thanks ill pass that along. I think one of his other issues was quantity. He needs a couple hundred and most companies have a minimum order well above that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Most of the smaller spikes were punched/sheared from strip and then had the heads donged a bit in a crude upsetting machine. I have one in my office here somewhere, I'll try to find it, photo it and post it here. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 upsetting matrix a clamshell holder with the interior hollowed out to hold the desired shaft shape and size exactly leaving just enough length above it to form the head. Clamshell so you can pop the piece out afterwards when you open the vise. I'd also do the chisel tip of the spike after upsetting allowing you to have a nice flat bottom to rest against the bottom of the hollow in the matrix. As for "too many" get a local smithing group to buy a bucket of them and divide up the rest. When I brought a couple of dozen to Quad-State they were *very* popular with the RR spike knife crowd; (cue gnashing of teeth...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Welcome aboard LM, glad to have you. I'd be thinking a dog type header for the vise or hardy hole. By doge type I mean slips like a rod dog on a drill rig uses to keep the drill stem from falling down the casing while lowering or pulling it and breaking lengths from the string. They're really simple devices, basically two jaws with an interior the right shape to grip the subject without letting it slip. The exterior is tapered so the dog makes a wedge. How it works is simple, the stock is inserted and the dog is slipped into the casing, vise jaws, hardy hole, whatever, as gravity tries to pull it down the wedge shaped slip dog pinches the stock and it can't go down any farther. As a spike header the harder you hit it the harder it will grip the spike. Removing it is as easy as a light tap from underneath. I'd use an air hammer with a header to head the spikes, just too much hand hammering for this old coot. Yeah, I can see the thing in my mind but I'd be checking into buying spikes were it my job. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalsmith21 Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Hm...making rr spikes then turning them into knives/tomahawks.. sounds like another project to add to my wish list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I may be over simplifying this as a newbie, but I recently decided I wanted to make nails, so made myself a header and went at it. 3/8 isn't very big, couldn't you use the same approach as heading nails? You might have to start with a little larger than 3/8 stock if that the size of shank wanted. As Jim suggested, 1/2 round miight be just about right. Frosty - the device your describing sounds real interesting, but what is "the right shape" not to let the stock slip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 I've seen a patternwelded RR spike before by Billy Merritt and of course JPH once mentioned making a file from a knife... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. M. REESE Posted November 13, 2013 Author Share Posted November 13, 2013 Thanks for the replies. I think I'll try either the upsetting matrix idea or the nail header. Ill let y'all know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 One problem that I can see with a header is that spikes are normally straight shanked, with no taper. This may cause problems, as all headers I have seen have been tapered to accept the nail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalsmith21 Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Why not make a square tube with a 3inch bottom to sink into a stump, just with an 1/8 bigger inside diameter than the square stock, grease it up real good and put the heated up square stock into it and upset the end of it to make the end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. M. REESE Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 That's a good idea. It would probably have to have a pretty thick wall to stand up to the beating and for heat dissipation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 Frosty - the device your describing sounds real interesting, but what is "the right shape" not to let the stock slip? The wedge shape is the outside of two "matching" sections, the spike or whatever fits in the space between the two slips. With the stock in the dog the halves are held apart a fraction of an inch so when the dog is dropped in the female receiver the wedging action drives the halves together and clamps the stock most thoroughly. It works like a wedge door stop, the harder you try to move the door the more stopped it gets. The right angle we used as a rod dog drilling was a lot more acute than a door stop but a little less acute than a hammer handle wedge. I've never made one so I don't have better numbers than thumbnail guesstimates. I'd be doing trial and error. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arkie Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 L. M., These are oilfield slips like Frosty is referring to. You can get an idea of the workings and the angles for the slips. They just drop down the hole with the pipe inside and wedge it tight. You don't need as many, just a couple like Frosty said. http://www.jereh-oilfield.com/english/products/Rotary-Slip.shtm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted November 14, 2013 Share Posted November 14, 2013 The wedge shape is the outside of two "matching" sections, the spike or whatever fits in the space between the two slips. With the stock in the dog the halves are held apart a fraction of an inch so when the dog is dropped in the female receiver the wedging action drives the halves together and clamps the stock most thoroughly. It works like a wedge door stop, the harder you try to move the door the more stopped it gets. The right angle we used as a rod dog drilling was a lot more acute than a door stop but a little less acute than a hammer handle wedge. I've never made one so I don't have better numbers than thumbnail guesstimates. I'd be doing trial and error. Frosty The Lucky. Thanks, I'm thinking this technique might come in handy in a few different applications. I'll have to add it to the list of things to try :) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. M. REESE Posted November 14, 2013 Author Share Posted November 14, 2013 Yeah, I've dealt with drill pipe before. I have a device like what frosty is talking about except it is used to pull old hand operated well pumps. You had to pull them every so often to change the leathers in the check valve which is at the bottom of the well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryCarroll Posted November 15, 2013 Share Posted November 15, 2013 Thomas Powers mentioned Billy Merritt, a master pattern welder. Is he still around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I have made made false railroad spikes before 2 different ways, #1 way is to start with thicker stock then the shank and drawn it down (instead of upsetting) and #2 make a rivet block for my post vise and upset the head. Form a counter bore in it to make the tapered web part of the spike head and with a good heat you can forge the head in one heat depending on your skill level with this type of thing. You could also walk down some tracks and pick up some spikes (tracks go all over the place and spikes get replaced and the used ones are thrown on to the slag off to the side and left there) or you could buy them second hand on ebay for around 50 cents-$1 a spike +shipping. -Crazy Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 sorry, RR term slag mean the gravel that is around the tracks. should have clarified. -Crazy Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 I have made made false railroad spikes before 2 different ways, #1 way is to start with thicker stock then the shank and drawn it down (instead of upsetting) and #2 make a rivet block for my post vise and upset the head. Form a counter bore in it to make the tapered web part of the spike head and with a good heat you can forge the head in one heat depending on your skill level with this type of thing. You could also walk down some tracks and pick up some spikes (tracks go all over the place and spikes get replaced and the used ones are thrown on to the slag off to the side and left there) or you could buy them second hand on ebay for around 50 cents-$1 a spike +shipping. -Crazy Ivan At least in the US, I would stay off of any active railroad tracks. Besides considered trespassing, many police agencies take a dim view of anyone on tracks, or collecting anything from them. I would not want to try to explain myself to Homeland Security or any other agency that I was only looking for "used spikes". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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