Blemishes and Dents

[SeanL]

I'm going to start my first legit knife soon, up until now i've just been working on small letter openers, hooks, animal heads, etc. But a problem I've noticed is that there are alot of blemishes and dents in the steel after i'm finished. I've tried grinding out the blemishes but i still can't get out the big dents.

 

Does anyone know how to get a smoother finish or any tips?

Also does the hammer make a difference? I use a 3 lb Ball pein.

[Steve Sells]

learning hammer control comes with practice,  work mild steel or even a old piece of lumber on your anvil until you get flat hits,   Your anvils height may be incorrect also.  See where the marks are coming from in the first place. the lumber will tell you fast if it is on the near/ side close to you, the anvil is too high, if far away side too low. but that means little until after you get hammer control and be consistant.

[ThomasPowers]

Yes you really are not supposed to start knives until your hammer control is really really good.  How your hammer is dressed and the exact height of your anvil WRT to *YOUR* body mechanics makes a big difference too.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Sean,

 

Sounds like you are doing just fine as a new smith...   Just a thought.....  Normally new smiths tend to forge to cold which yields a lot of marks...  Also the surface area on your hammer is probably to small..   Look up other hammers on this forum and you will find most have flatter and larger areas..

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

 

Just before you are finished forging and at forging temperature, use a FLATTER to smooth out your carefully aimed targets. If you don't have a flatter, find a chunk of thick scrap (1-2" thick, radiused edges, some kind of handle to hang onto). When you are forging and coming near the end, take lighter blows on the high spots to start to smooth it out.

 

Don't stop trying, just practice patience. Soon it will be naturally nice. :) :)

 

Neil

[billyO]

Another thought is, if you feel you're hammer control is good, are you brushing the scale off the piece and the anvil regularly, like every heat?  Scale will leave pockmarks and the longer it's on, the deeper the crater.

[SeanL]

Thanks for the advice guys, I'll keep them in mind

[Charles R. Stevens]

As Thomas already pointed out, how your hammer is dressed is very important. As it comes from the store it's not right. There are a few descusions on how to "dress" or regrond your hammer faces, pluss Steve and Rich spend a lot of brain sweat on the "knife making class" and specifically address grinding a big Box store hammer.
In short the face should be smooth, not showing the spiral and little bump in the middle with the be beveled edge. It should have a a slightly convex shape (some say it should be flat in the center of "x" inches but I don't agree, if you want flatter, use one) and the chamferd edge should be made in to a smoth radius.
Scale, hammer control, anvil hight will all get you, but I see a lot of folks trying to start with store bought hammer and fighting it all the way.

[windancer]

I always hear Brian Brazel's voice when I am at the anvil-

"Forge at red, planish at black"

Forging while the piece is still hot will give the best results for shaping. Brian planishes every heat- going back over the area just forged with light blows to smooth the work after the color is gone.

I am finding less and less marks in my work after breaking it down to the two processes.

Dave

[Steve Sells]

I always hear Brian Brazel's voice when I am at the anvil-

"Forge at red, planish at black"

Forging while the piece is still hot will give the best results for shaping. Brian planishes every heat- going back over the area just forged with light blows to smooth the work after the color is gone.

I am finding less and less marks in my work after breaking it down to the two processes.

Dave

 

I have one problem with that advice.    Unless its a simple steel, Forging at a black heat can shatter the knife when hit.  This is the knife making section so that needs to be in our minds when offering solutions, that some alloys do not work like 10xx series does.

[Stormcrow]

And when you're planishing, use light blows.  You aren't trying to move a lot of metal, just smooth it.  Don't let the steel be too cold, and don't get it as hot as when you were hitting with full force.

 

Follow up with three normalizing cycles after you have everything straight.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Sean, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll find there are probably lots of the IFI gang within visiting distance.

 

I don't have much to add to the advice already given. The craft isn't magic, it's knowledge and practice. Both have to be good, a thoroughly practiced mistake is still a mistake.

 

When planishing below red heat don't spend a lot of time at it or you will hammer more stress into the steel than it can endure. There's also a good chance you won't be able to planish out marks if your hammer control is leaving bad ones.

 

Another thing about control is exactly what control means. It's about the person holding the tools, not the tools. Tools are just highly refined dirt, without a human directing them they're as innanimate as a stone. The steel will communicate with you through feel, mostly in the holding hand but through the hammer too, it also sings it's song to you, you have to train your ear to hear the music. Your eyes are actually only the targeting and result feedback system.

 

You're ears will tell you more about the steel's forging status than color, you can HEAR when it's time to stop forging and start planishing and more importantly when planishing is going to do damage.

 

You'll feel these states mostly in your holding hand but also through the hammer, pay attention, the steel will tell you what you have to do next to get it to do what you want next.

 

As has been said a number of times,learning to read the shine tells you more about the results of the last blow than most anything else. The steel will SHINE briefly where the hammer struck, watch for it, it'll allow you to analyze cause and effect. I'm not saying color isn't important, it's very important but you need to know what it's saying. the lower the carbon content the hotter you want to forge it. Higher carbon content is more susceptible to overheating so it works better cooler. However too cool and it can be like hitting a ceramic cup with a hammer. It's in the fine changes in state where your ear will tell you the critical states and timing.

 

Making leaves is good bladesmithing practice, just make them double beveled and smooth as a real leaf. Sure it isn't a knife blade but well made requires the same techniques and practices. Want to make blades right off? Make grass blades, much harder than leaves but you'll learn to control curvature. Mild steel moves easier but mistakes are made more easily too so you'll be able to correct your technique faster and with less expensive material.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

pretty much *any* knifemaking advice is ALLOY SPECIFIC; some alloys you DON'T normalize (S1 for example at least the ASM Heat treating handbook says not to!); others are pretty hard to normalize---like the air hardening steels.

 

So first thing I do when working a new to me alloy is to hit the ASM handbook and then factor in that the suggestions are based of 1" cross sections and so knife thicknesses will take some tweaking!

[Stormcrow]

True, Thomas, but most knife steels a beginner should be using are going to be just fine with a triple normalization cycle.

[Rich Hale]

The steels a new maker is using and the skills, are at times distant from wot they have or are prepared to use....Best if they take all of this advice to heart,,

[ThomasPowers]

Rainy Raven is right; but it's good to get in the habit of checking *before* all that time spent ends in the dreaded "tink".  I train my students to start doing stuff that doesn't matter in their beginning projects but does make a difference in their possible future ones.

[Rich Hale]

Just read original post again..A three lb ball pein most likely has a rounded face, that I think is easier to beging forging with, but most of the time a lighter weight hammer will help develop body mechanics to smooth finished work out  and a face properly dressed wil also help once you have developed the ability to strike accurately with proper force. That usually comes along about the time you learn fire control...

[ThomasPowers]

I've noticed that most of my students tend to gravitate towards too light a hammer or too heavy a hammer when given the choice.

[rockstar.esq]

I've noticed an improvement in my control with a better shaped hammer handle.  The stock handle was clubby and tended to rotate a bit in my hand.  Because the handle was fairly round, I didn't feel the shifting.  A slightly octagonal handle really helped me on that score.

 

Unintentionally hitting with the corner of the hammer face was causing the dents.  Watch the Abana Videos on youtube for examples of the planishing mentioned above.  It's amazing how precise the surface finish can be with developed skill.  For me, the reshaped handle gave me a signal when I was doing something wrong.

[Rich Hale]

One thing for sure to consider when you read all of this excellent advice posted here is: Who answered and how well they do at what they are speaking about.  I like to see pics that truly define their abilities in that area to help me decide the value they have in the thread.

In this case wot knives have they forged that are similiar to wot you wish to use as models for youir work, not shapes, styes or etc..but the finish you wish.

 

Ask them for pics and I am sure they will post or pvt note to you.

I will!