Mexican rebar

[ChiefCodeX]

So I bought some cheap rebar to practice with. I know rebar is not that good of a steel. I found out the other day that it is mexican rebar. It is made from railroad track and is very hard. I was wondering if that makes it a better steel than regular rebar, and does it make good steel to use on a project. I was thinking maybe tool steel.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Around here they make "T" posts from old rail. If its rail and if its the kind of rail used in the US I would think it is 50 point carbon. I'd certainly perform shop tests on it to see what it dose.

[DSW]

Rebar comes in a wide variety of "flavors". The stuff most people get is usually all remelt scrap of some kind designed to meet a minimum tensile value and that's about it. I've cut some that cuts like butter in the bar cutter and you can cut 2 pieces at once with no problems, and I've had stuff that was so hard a 250 lb guy could hang from the 4' handle of the cutter on a single piece of 1/2". When it finally cut after bouncing or adding a 6 foot cheater pipe, it snapped and rang almost like a bell.

 

 

"Code" quality rebar is held to  much tighter tolerances. Usually called out for critical structural applications it's seldom remelt scrap, but new steel. It's also not the stuff you find at Depot or the average yard, and it's quite pricy. Most of this stuff today I've typically seen is usually epoxy coated since many times they want to insure the bar against corrosion. Tensile strengths can also be significantly higher than "normal" rebar found at Depot etc. Thus it tends to be harder than "normal" rebar.

 

 

One other thing I've noticed about hot working rebar. It often has a tendency to work harden and can get very hard when quenched. I've had bar that cut like butter cold with a hacksaw, that would strip all the teeth off the same blade after having been heated and cooled. At that point we had to cut it with the abrasive saw.

[SmoothBore]

One of the projects, from many years ago, that got me interested in having a Forge in my shop, ... was a very simple fabrication job, using 3/4" rebar to make a "step" to aid in climbing onto a tractor.

 

I wanted the step to be "skelatilized" so that mud and snow would pass through, ... and the "no slip" texture on the rebar, was more attractive than using pipe or round bar, or any other sort of smooth surfaced material.

 

At that time, I had no way of heating the rebar, to facilitate bending, ... but I thought I could "notch" it part way through, bend it at the weakened point, and then weld up the notches.

 

What actually happened to the sawed and ground notches, when I tried to bend them, ... is that they snapped off clean, at the weakened point, ... and a 1 hour fabrication job, turned into a half-day "cut and weld" project.

 

 

The good news, is that the rebar has served without any problems, for about 21 years now, ... and shows no signs of failure.

 

A "thing of beauty" it is NOT, ... unless you find beauty in durable, functional items.

 

 

I also run homemade "Log Skidder" style tire chains on that same tractor, ... and make the 6" diameter "center rings", from 3/4" rebar.

 

It would not be possible to bend those rings without a Forge, ... and the stress relief it imparts to the finished ring, makes them indestructable in use.

 

 

The point of those examples being, ... that rebar can be very useful, ... but it is best suited for use in it's original form.

 

I wouldn't attempt to Forge it into a different cross section, ... or use it for any kind of "striking" or "struck" tool, ... or any kind of pry-bar.

 

 

 

 

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[ChiefCodeX]

Well I know that they can't use it for building pools ( my dad works in the pool business) because when you try to bend it it just snaps and sends shards flying. That's why pool builders refuse to use rebar from Mexico.

[Frank Turley]

In many areas of old Mexico, a horse owner will not tolerate mild steel horseshoes. They must be hand turned from rebar and the owner even likes the ribs to show on the finished edges of the shoe.

 

"Yuh see, in Medicine, we call it a practice."

 

" 'Cause you're always practicin'?"

[Timothy Miller]

RR track is hard you as a beginner need soft steel to work with.  You have enough problems like getting a good heat, holding the steel properly in a good pair of tongs, anvil that wobbles on the base or is too light.  Your arm is not trained.  You throw into the mix hard steel to forge with you might give up.  Give your self a break and buy some hot rolled steel from your local steel supply rebar is not really a good choice for the beginner.  It is used when nothing else is available.

[Waylon63]

Hey guys I realize this digresses from the topic a bit. I am also a Paramedic, and have been for 18 years. I have taught a course called "Basic Disaster Life Support" under the National Disaster Life Support Foundation. One of the topics is radiation. The attached is an example of some of the things we get from our neighbors to the south.  http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/accidents/juarez.htm

Dave

[Francis Trez Cole]

Re bar is a good way to start I got a bunch about 10 years ago a ton real cheep that was good quality. I make a lot of punches and drifts with it. I use a gunther quench to harden it. 

[L Smith]

Gave up on rebar real quick, got tired of mashing in the bumps. Round stock is worth the price.

[ChiefCodeX]

I know it's not the greatest i the world but is this Mexican rebar (not regular rebar) worth using on a project. I do t mind it being hard to hammer, I can handle that.

[Chinobi]

i hate to be vaguely negative with my response, but with none of us having worked that specific flavor of rebar i dont think you are asking a question that we can definitively answer.  the only real way to determine if mystery meat steal is applicable for tooling (for example) is to make some tooling and test it.  the real kicker with rebar is that it is inconsistent, so you might have one stick that tests like high carbon and the next one like mild.  do you have any kind of paperwork or spec that states that your batch was recycled from straight railroad rail?  are you stating that it is very hard because you think it is from rail and therefore will be hard? have you tried working it yet? maybe put a stick in a vice, wrap it up with a thick layer of heavy towels and do a bend test (maximum PPE mandatory) to see if it shatters per your dads experience?

 

you have left out a very important detail: what project?  that which is desirable for one project could be inapplicable to downright dangerous for another.

 

flip through some of the threads on heat treating and testing in the knife chat forum to get a detailed rundown on heat treatment testing and keep the best notes possible of what you did and what the results were.

[John McPherson]

In days of old, wrought iron was sold in the form of 'merchant bars', and transported to the smithy by boat, wagon, or mule, as the case may be by peddlars.

 

The smith had to be his own Metallurgist and Quality Control department. Before purchasing an unknown batch, he would select a bar or two at random from the pile, and heat 'n beat. Price negotions only began when he figured what grade of metal he was looking at.

 

And so we come full circle. Today, YOU have to be aware of the quality of the mystery metal (and coal, tongs, anvils, hammers, etc.) that you are being offered to know if you are being cheated, or getting a bargain. This is where reading books, going thru the archives, then asking questions, or joining a local group to soak up knowledge will cut the time on the learning curve.

 

 

Wisdom comes from good judgement. Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from BAD judgement.

[Timothy Miller]

What is so hard about buying some 1/2" or 3/8" round to work with from your local steel supply.  Rebar is hard to work with and it cost money too.  All of us only get so much time at the forge before we take the big dirt nap why waste it with working with junk.  Its the particle board of the metal world.  

[SmoothBore]

Well, ... a couple of things .....

 

Here, in the North East, we have a wide selection of Steel Suppliers, ... but this is not true everywhere.

 

And our counterparts from bygone days, rarely had the luxury of "ordering up" material of specific grade and dimension.

 

So, for me, there's a certain satisfaction gained from re-purposing "junk", in the Tradition of our forebears.

 

 

 

 

.

[DSW]

What is so hard about buying some 1/2" or 3/8" round to work with from your local steel supply.   

 

I often deal with a lot of guys who are new to metal working since I help instruct. Often the only "supplier" they know of or can think of is places like Depot/Lowes or maybe the local hardware store or scrap they find laying around in the trash. Compared to buying 3' of 3/8 or 1/2" mild steel at Depot, rebar looks like a good alternative that's easily available.

One problem many new guys have is that typical steel suppliers are only open 7-5 at best Mon- Fri. A few places have short Sat hours. This means the average home hobbyist has to take off work to go get material. Not always an option. However Depot/Lowes and ACE are open usually till 9pm 7 days a week. I'll also admit that many large suppliers don't deal well with small purchase customers. Many times they see the guy who is buying shorts or single lengths as a PITA and don't make it easy for them to purchase materials. They use all sorts of excuses to hinder sales to individuals or jack up the prices to offset the hassle or simply try to drive away the occasional small use customer.

I find the biggest issue is simply lack of knowledge of the new guys. I often have students tell me they "can't" get material anywhere but Depot/Lowes. I can list maybe  a half dozen places semi local and a few really good ones say 1-2 hours drive away, where they can get decent materials. There is at least one small semi-local "old time" hardware store that sells steel stock by the foot at roughly the cost of rebar at the box store, and they are open Sat, even though they have day time hours weekdays. I've also have a local specialty metals supplier who will sell even tool steel by the inch if need be. Downside is he's only open during the day. He is open fairly early so you can order in advance and pick up 1st thing in the morning on the way to work if need be.

[John McPherson]

Cheap rebar is just that: cheap. Great for it's intended purpose, to be buried in patios, driveways, sidewalks, and similar low stress projects. As a blacksmith beginning stock, fit only for making into tent stakes and similar items. When heated and worked, I have seen it shatter like glass, and unravel like a rope.

 

High grade rebar is a specified, engineered, batch traceable material used in supports in high dollar projects. If you get some off-cuts from an interstate bridge, or nuclear power plant, well, that is a whole 'nuther animal indeed. Not sold in stores! (And this time we really mean it.)

 

This is one of the hardest lessons to impart to those new to the metal trades: not all steels are created equal. There is a whole range of chemistry and quality available in things that look superficially the same, such as rebar, or round stock. Until you become educated on the subject, everything you work on is just a shot in the dark, with random success or failure.

[Timothy Miller]

You could always call your local welding/fab shop and ask if they have any cut offs that they would be willing to sell.  I have piles of stuff I am always happy help out an earnest smith.  The unearnest and long talkers get charged more.

[ChiefCodeX]

I have no problem with using or buying other steel. I have two huge piles of scrap steel at a friends ranch, i just need to pick it up. Also I got this rebar for 50 cents a piece, the idea was just get something to hammer on as I had no other steel. I have no idea of a project yet, I thought maybe a knife. I know it's hard because I worked it and it took quite a bit of hammering to work.

[arkie]

Is there a way to identify Mexican rebar? Stampings...codes...etc. ?

I seldom use rebar, mostly for campfire pokers, birdfeeder poles and similar low impact stuff.

[ChiefCodeX]

It has Mexico stamped on it

[Chinobi]

is that the only marking on it?  i find it hard to believe that an entire sector of industry for a whole country uses only one raw material to make one recycled product :)

 

considering that it works like tougher than mild steel try beating a few sticks into knife shaped cross sections and iterate some heat treatment cycles on it.  that or send some off to a university material science department or a lab and get the composition tested.  

 

Rich Hale wrote this up presumably in response to recent discussions about stainless steel, but if you replace 'stainless steel' with 'rebar' the message is still applicable.

with a known steel you can test until you get the process right and then you can just follow your notes and you will get similar results. (so long as you still have some of that known steel or a reliable source to get more of the same alloy)

but when you get into the recycled material you might burn up a whole rod testing and finally settle on a procedure, but the next rod might be an entirely different flavor and you have to start all over again.

 

mostly unrelated side thought: are there oilfields or oil company infrastructure near you?  old sucker rod makes for dandy tooling and you might be able to get it on the cheap.  not tremendously hardenable (4130 IIRC?), but might make for a more consistent trainer than the rebar.

[arkie]

It has Mexico stamped on it

OK, thanks. That's a lot simpler than a bunch of numbers and letters.

[Bentiron1946]

As our paramedic friend stated you do get some strange stuff in Mexican rebar, I do remember that radiation scare. However for the most part in the past I have had fun using rebar for making sculpture, it has an interesting texture and I didn't use in are areas were great stress would occur. I have made a spear for my son when he was five, wife did not appreciate that at all but sometimes the hand is faster than the mind, sure son I can make a spear and this is how you do that. Oh well we live and learn. Rebar makes interesting fences, here again it's the texture of the rod that lends itself for and interesting fence. So I guess what it comes do to is if you like the texture it just doesn't matter where it comes from so long as it doesn't glow in the dark.

[ChiefCodeX]

All I know I it has Mexico stamped on it, and what my dad told me. Also it would not surprise me that most Mexican rebar is made from one material. In southern Mexico there are lots of derailments. Two or three a month. They once had twenty three derailments in one month