Fire Welding help needed

[WoodedForge]

Hey guys, I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong with fire welding the other day. I'm using a coal forge first off. 

 

So I decided I was just going fire weld two pieces of scrap to learn how, but I failed miserably. Can't even figure out how I failed. 

 

My process was as follows:

 

Started forge (duh, lol)

Got fire pot nice and deep and fully glowing (Aprox. 7-9 inch heart)(Metal is of larger size)

Picked two pieces, one 8" x 3" the other about 7" x 3"

Heated (first time) to glowing, my normal working heat. Failed

Realized I would need much more heat, heated to nearly burnt (Where it sparks)

Still failed. 

Added forge borax (Actually called Cherry Heat http://www.centaurforge.com/Cherry-Heat-Welding-Compound-5-lb-can/productinfo/5CHERRY/)

 

I cleaned the metal off with a wire brush first, then applied the powder, but I admit I had now idea how to use it

still failed. 

Decided I needed help.

 

Can anyone help me figure out where I went wrong, or give me a run down of how you do it?

[Rich Hale]

I am not sure about the sizes of your metal of wot they are made from, (only gave two dimensions) Wot they are made from is improtant. some metals are harder to weld,

I like to heat metal to a dull red,,,color looks way different in different ambient lights. Then I flux with twenty mule team borax. sprinkle it on just enough to coat. Then back to the fire. and if you are trying to weld metal pieces not connected to each other that is a tough way to learn. Easier way it to connect them, A tack from a welder, a rivet, tie with steel wire etc. the bring up to a heat that makes the flux looks molten and active. remove from fire with hammer in hand. Steel loses heat really fast,,may want to try using tongs,,,putting in and out of a cool forge a few times and moving to the anvil. When yoiu have heat right,,,below sparking, lay on anvil and tap it with a couple of light blows, I like a two lb hammer or less. Then wire brush and flux and repeat.

After three time. look close, if both pieces look the same color in the forge they may be stuck,,when you pull from firs if one is a brighter color they are not stuck together. Mild steel,,,half inch thick and maybe one inch wide,,,long enough to work with is good to start on...heat one ends and fold back a couple of inches onto itsel,,this is called a faggot weld...Weld as above..and when it all looks like one piece while hot then you can use heavier forgein blows to shape....This is not a starting place for learning to forge,,,but it is so easy I learned!

[Frosty]

Ditto Rich as to technique. I do it a little differently but the fundamentals are the same. the joint faces need to be closely matched so they have as complete contact surfaces as possible. Next they need to be as clean as possible, clean polished steel will weld dead cold if in contact, adding heat speeds the process. that was just an example, not a goal of some kind. Anyway, match the face and clean as well as reasonably possible.

 

My favorite method for making a faggot weld like Rich describes is to fold the end back till it's about 1/4" from closed then take a coarse file to both faces at a low red heat. After quickly filing clean I flux lightly. borax will melt at around 350f so it'll do a little foaming and coat the joint while it's still shiny clean. If you move quickly enough it's still hot enough to close. You're NOT welding at this point just closing the gap in preparation. I then dust the edges with a little more borax and return it to the fire. With a total thickness of 1", (two layers of 1/2"x1") will take a little soak time to heat to the center, at least a few minutes. If you quickly pull the piece from the fire look at the joint line, if the side facing the fire is brighter than the far side it wants more soak time, turn it over and return it.

 

When it's bright yellow almost like an incandescent light bulb it's ready to weld. have your hammer in your hammer hand and quickly pull the piece from the fire but do NOT lay it on the anvil! The anvil will draw heat far faster than the fire will heat it. Hold it a fraction of an inch off the anvil face and give it a couple light but firm raps with your hammer. First one just back from the fold, the second at the end of the folded piece. Depending on how long the fold is you may need to walk the blows from the bend to the end in however many blows necessary. This striking pattern is to prevent inclusion from being trapped.

 

Now roll the piece 90* so you can see the seam to judge if the sides are even colored. The way the anvil draws heat the anvil side will be significantly darker if the weld hasn't taken. Regardless, reflux and return it to the fire. Bring it back to high yellow and give it a few more welding blows but turn the piece over so the other side is on the anvil and compare the sides again. Even if it took with the first blows a second welding heat is good it refines the weld and improves the diffusion. When goth sides of the join are the same color it's time to do the shaping, its one piece.

 

I don't think you're a one of a kind though. I built our house in the forest and my shop is a little farther in. Trees are good just don't let one fall on you. <wink>

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jmccustomknives]

What they said, and try using a smaller hammr.  Often a heavy hammer/striking too hard will cause the weld to fail because it slips.  A light hammer will give enough pressure but not so much to cause the shearing.

[SmoothBore]

I think the best "practice" is by making scarfed joints, in fairly small pieces.

 

Making Chain Links, is my reccommendation.

 

 

 

.

[ThomasPowers]

Possibly the piece was too oxidized to weld after the first go

 

Did you grind/file the surfaces clean before each attempt?

Next is not too hot not too cold

lastly is to strike firmly not sharply.

 

And the zeroth one is alloy of course!

 

 

Forge welding is one of those things that trying to learn it on the internet can take you months but a Saturday afternoon spent with a fellow who knows what he's doing can be all you need.

 

(Had a 15 year old spend an afternoon with me once.  He was a good kid so I did the first weld on a billet and then had him make the next two and sent it home with him...)

[Frank Turley]

I don't get it. 8" x 3" meaning width times thickness? That is a huge piece to heat in a regular fire pot.

[Solano]

Money well spent to spend some time with a master smith....... as Frank says, "ever a good weld"   and he makes it so easy and effortless.

[WoodedForge]

Sorry, the pieces are about 1/4" thick. Not sure of which grade metal they are, only that the stock they came from was a major pain to work, so I assume something high carbon. I got them at Lowes for practicing a few techniques, price wasn't bad but the exact info was lacking. 

 

I think ThomasPowers was right, after re-inspecting the pieces, I think they were oxidized. I never even thought to grind them clean, as they were pretty rusty, I just assumed the fire would burn that off. But hey, I just learned something, so I guess it's not a waste. 

 

I would like to know if there's a way I can determine what type of steel I'm using even if that info wasn't available at purchase... I feel like it'll help me avoid getting ripped off in the future.

[Frank Turley]

The spark test will help ID plain carbon steels.

 

Too many welding heats will oxidize the metal, especially if they are sparking heats. You are in the burning range.

 

There are a number of types of welds: faggot; straight lap; tee; angle; tee-pocket; bird's mouth (cleft); jump. Scarf preparation is important, when needed.

 

Try to find "Elementary Forge Practice" by Robert Harcourt and "Plain and Ornamental Forging" by Ernst Schwarzkopf.

[oddtodd]

MEtal from lowes is coated with an anti rust compound. THey may look rusty, but they are not. If you don't get that coating off you will never be able to forge weld it. It doesn't get in the way of arc welding because it burns off because the heat is so much hotter with an arc or mig weld. That and you are paying WWWAAAYYYYY too much. There has to be a local metal sales or welding shop close to you. Welding shops here sell me steel all the time for not much more than they paid for it. It's an idean anyway. I learned on half inch square doing faggot welds. It's worth a shot!

[Vladimir]

1.  The coal must be of high quality. Coal should contain minimum amounts of sulfur. Most suitable for forge welding - charcoal.

 

2. In fire pot should not be a slag.

 

3. The flame should be "soft." Without large amounts of oxygen.

 

4. The smaller the percentage of carbon and alloying elements in the steel, the easier it can be welded.

 

5. Steel should be heated to welding temperature. If you are welding for steel without  flux, welding temperature can be determined by certain signs. Steel begins to "cry" and there are some sparks. Flux dissolves oxides on the steel surface and  flux allows make welding at lower temperature.

 

6. Heat the steel to a red glow. Sprinkle with flux. Fluxes may be different. Borax, pure quartz sand, sand mixed with salt, sand mixed with soda, special fluxes. Borax has a melting point lower than that of sand and it is better held on the surface.Then heat the steel to welding temperature. The color is white. Molten flux shines like a wet candy. There may appear some sparks. Do not overheat  steel. Do not let appear a lot of sparks.

 

7. Quickly move the heated bars on the surface of the anvil and the first light, and then a more powerful blows weld them together.The first blows of the hammer does not have to be strong. Molten metal from the surface will scatter in different directions and  bars will not be welded.

 

I did not remove  flux with a wire brush before welding. But you can do it if you want and can do it quickly.

 

It's my way. Maybe not the best.

Thanks.

[Frosty]

Todd and all: All new steel has a coat of oil or even some surprisingly thick cosmolene like stuff on it for rust protection it has for decades. Cold rolled is coated in a sticky oil and some hot rolled looks to have a coat of black lacquer but is probably just heat polymerized oil.

 

You  have to clean it all if you want to weld it. I may be a little excessive filing it shiny but my welds stick more often than not. 

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[WoodedForge]

Thanks guys. This is the most help I've ever gotten from any place online. I realized that a lot of you were right when you said I may be better off finding a mentor, so I think that's what I'm gonna do. But I did finally get a decent weld, I just had to use some rod stock I had bought to practice scrolling. Unfortunately I didn't understand what I did differently to succeed that time, so I think it's time to look for someone that can show me. 

 

I'm gonna head over to the meeting forum, but just in case anyone here is in the Culpeper, VA area, I could definitely use a good mentor. 

[arcc]

My biggest problem is as Frosty mentioned not letting the steel soak enough. I seem to have the problem most when I take a few week break from smithy/welding. It is very easy to get jumpy when your steel gets to light yellow and yank it from the fire, only to have your weld fail because it is only at welding temp on the outside.

 

I've definitely run into the error when welding something larger like a wrap and weld axe and at least on my end requires intense inward fighting to have patience.

[Mark Emig]

Check out some of Mark Aspery's stuff on youtube, he's got some pretty clear,concise videos-seeing how someone does it can help you figure it out.

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

Why does this topic just keep coming up over and over when we have posted so very many how-to's on forge welding? Simple solution: come spend 4 hours with me and I will have you doing structural forge welds before you leave...