FieryFurnace Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 In my recent thread on matching nickel hardware, we talked about forging stainless to fake the nickel look. So my next question is, what alloys of stainless can be forged and what can't? My steel yard has stainless, but I want to make sure I get the right stuff. The client wants to see stainless samples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 from what i've seen almost any alloy of stainless is forgable (with enuf force) .i have forged spoons and forks from random pieces of stainless. most stainless are iron alloys with nickle and chromium .tough stuff but forgable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 23, 2013 Share Posted May 23, 2013 not all are forgable the CPM stuff is going to fall apart, they are not crubible steels, they are made with particle technology that allows alloys with concentrations of addittions that wont go into solution nbormally, but only under speical conditions. Attempting to forge them breaks those bonds, but we are not likely to see much of them in a scrap yard. only stock removal blade makers want them around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronAlchemy Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 Dave, Welcome to the world of stainless. I love using it. If you are trying to match a polished nickel surface, the closest common alloy is 316. I mostly find 303 or 304 stainless in the metal yards around here. The 300 series alloys will be non-magnetic. In some industrial areas, you may find hardenable stainless alloys which are magnetic. It can be hard to tell the alloys apart without a spectrographic analysis. Let us know how it goes. Doug Wilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 316 stainless is more corrosion resistant than 304 and more expensive. Both are hard to forge 304 is the most easy to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pault17 Posted May 24, 2013 Share Posted May 24, 2013 I happened upon a bunch of sheet cutoffs from a stainless fabricating place near a local community college, which I use to make shovel blanks from. I am pretty sure it is non hardenable. The shovel I made for the shop at the state fairgrounds is still virtually untouched after 5 or 6 years. nice stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin W Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 316 is more forgiving than 304, less likely to break ( forging temp ) and less likely to rust ( passivation/welding). I gather 316-L is better than 316 for forging ( L - low carbon ) but couldn't really tell a deference with 3/8" stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted May 26, 2013 Author Share Posted May 26, 2013 Thanks guys! I'll probably hit the steel yard Monday and see what they have! We are going to be making hammers again in a week, so I've got to get some 4140 and 1045 too! Should be a real cheap bill! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted May 26, 2013 Share Posted May 26, 2013 The 300 series stainless steels are also know as 18-8 stainless due to the approx 18% Chrome and 8% nickel content. They are not heat treatable to increase hardness, in fact you heat and water quench to anneal. The 300 series are work hardenable, and in fact 316 will be somewhat magnetic in the workhardened state. 316 vs 316L is more of a weldability issue than forging issue. The 316L grades are often using in piping and valve and fittings as well as vessels for the petrochemical industry. At VOGT we used a dual grade 316/316L for our valves and fitting manufacture. Expect about 50% more effort required to yeaild the same metal movement as mild steel. Forge at a nice yemon yellow, and put it back in the forge at red. Red 300 laughs at blacksmiths. All that chrome and nickel give it high hot strenght. 400 series are often know as 13 chrome stainless and are heat treatable for hardness. The 400 series are approx 13% Chrome and the nickel varies. Also takes about 50% more effort to forge than mild steel. Most of the 400 series are oil quench. The 410 and 420 grades are used more for high strenght at elevated temps than hardness. 440 in the A, B, or C grades will get nicely hard and is used especially in the 440C grade as knife blade material. The 440C can be a little tricky to heat treat by eye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin W Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hey ptree, I've been told I was buying 316/316L before, and, couldn't really get any info out of the lady at the steel yard to help me understand what seemed to me like an either / or situation. " dual grade " sounds like it is both at the same time, I don't get it. " Fish in a tree, how could that be ? " Dr.Suess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forgemaster Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Today we had to jump up 6 bits of 630 stainless from 130mm dia x 122mm long to 145mm dia x 95mm long, always a fun job. Procedure for 630 stainless is heat to 1200 deg C hold for one hour, do not forge below 1050 deg C, after forging air cool to below 32 degrees, then solution anneal (heat to 1040 deg C oil quench) Moral of this story is try to find out what grade of stainless you have and forge as per manufacturers specification (thats if its going to be a critical bit of gear), if its just ornamental, forge away, just keep it hot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Hey ptree, I've been told I was buying 316/316L before, and, couldn't really get any info out of the lady at the steel yard to help me understand what seemed to me like an either / or situation. " dual grade " sounds like it is both at the same time, I don't get it. As Ptree (mistyped :)) my understanding is that 316 vs 316L is more to do with welding than forging. L being lower carbon. I always specify 316L when I order it, but the latest order came in with the 50mm (2") square bar being tagged 316, I queried it with the supplier and they said it is all 316L nowadays. Sure enough when I looked at the spec on the data sheets when they arrived the 316 bar I had was actually lower carbon than the 316L bars. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 316 stainless is more corrosion resistant than 304 and more expensive. But not by that much!(speaking with the blacksmith mindset) unless you are in the chemical or petrochem industry and for aprox 50% premium? weather you get 304 or 304L will make very little didderence once it has been in and out of your forge a couple of times. For door furniture 304 is the right product. if you are offered 310 bear in mind that this is furnace grade intended for continuis use at 2100 deg.F. ie. easier to forge rocks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 When I first starting buying stainless the cost of the material in relation to the cost of the project seemed to be less of a factor. Because I was manipulating it a lot most of the cost of the project was in my labour not the materials. I was buying to make cutlery, spoons and ladles, so I went for catering grade 316. When I started using stainless for architectural projects I kept on with 316 for a number of reasons. One; I would not muddle them up in the rack and use the wrong one. Two; I could tell the client I was using the best stain resistant version available. Three; I found it cost only about 25% more than 304 and if I was going for 300% of mild steel cost anyway that difference was not so great. I take the point about putting it through the fire, but given an equal maltreatment and finishing regime 316 will still survive more resilient than 304. :) If you are mainly doing fabrication with it, or any architectural work when the cost of the material is a high percentage of the project, 304 would be the more sensible way to go. But hey, I am a blacksmith where does sensible come into the equation? :) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Hey ptree, I've been told I was buying 316/316L before, and, couldn't really get any info out of the lady at the steel yard to help me understand what seemed to me like an either / or situation. " dual grade " sounds like it is both at the same time, I don't get it. " Fish in a tree, how could that be ? " Dr.Suess The carbon percentage specified is a maximum allowed value: 0.03 or less for 316L and 0.08 or less for 316. So 316L also counts as 316. Only advantage for the lower carbon is comes welding the stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin W Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ahhhh, I see. Thanks thing maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 But hey, I am a blacksmith where does sensible come into the equation? :) Alan Spoken like "the Man" I Agree whole heartedly! I would like to clarify for All. When I refered to putting it in the forge I was trying to point out that paying "extra" for the low carbon (L) version is pointless, However if you are if you are going to weld it First then by all means pay the man. It is money well spent. Alan, Having seen your Art I'm not surprised that you stick to 316. (This man makes awsome stuff guys) I just have an issue when chaps that are new to S/S are "pushed/cajolled " into 316 when much more cost efective (and suitable) options are out there. I have 16 x 4 welding tables with S/S tops to not cross contaminate with ferrous etc. but if you are just going to make some door furniture " Don't stress" it's just not that serious. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Well.....I picked up some stainless! It's 404, and is all the yard offers / has. $65 for 12-foot of 5/8-inch square! Now the fun begins! As far as color range, am I still looking for a bright yellow forging temperature when I take it out of the fire? I should return it to the fire sooner than steel though, correct? I am going to cut a small piece, forge it down to maybe 3/8-inch, and make some leaves / flowers for practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I am sure others will tell you who are more qualified than I, but the 400 series of stainless steels are the high carbon tool steels suitable for blades and the like. Unlike the 300 series which you can anneal by quenching, with the 400 if you quench it it will harden it. Get the data sheet and look up the spec. on the Internet for its properties. You can check whether you have 300 or 400 with a magnet. 300 series is non-magnetic. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 And now for the good news! 404 does not harden- work hardens a bit but not much! If you air cool it it aneals a bit. forge at 1100c and you can tig weld it using 309 wire. corosion resistant much like 304 and your scrap is worth less than mild steel. If you had bought that in a scrapyard it would have cost the same/possible less than mild steel. If you don't pasivate it will go brown.........Rust! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I am sure others will tell you who are more qualified than I, but the 400 series of stainless steels are the high carbon tool steels suitable for blades and the like. Unlike the 300 series which you can anneal by quenching, with the 400 if you quench it it will harden it. Get the data sheet and look up the spec. on the Internet for its properties. You can check whether you have 300 or 400 with a magnet. 300 series is non-magnetic. Alan not all the 400 series has high carbon, check the spec's, a few are very low carbon. Also not all are good for blades, 440 is good, but the others well.. they look nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 I am well informed thank you Steve and Ian. I took my own advice and have just done a Google search and the only reference to 404 I could find was an Australian company offering a "new" grade 404GP made by a Japanese mill. Properties just as Ian described containing 21% chrome and no nickel. I am glad I prefaced my post as I did. Would have been accurate if I had said the 400 series contains the higher carbon range....but hey ho, so close but no banana! Just goes to show how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Uhhhhh correction! It's 304 that I got! *bangs head against brick wall repeatedly, vowing to start remembering number designations.* It forged quite nicely, but not below a brightish red heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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