Steel selection - punches,drifts,chisels

[Eddie Mullins]

I am building my tool collection and am needing punches, drifts, chisels, etc. I had hope to locate some springs to make them, but not having much luck so would like to purchase steel to make them.

 

I have to admit I am bit confused by all of the types out there. For example, I have seen 4140 listed here as a good choice for my application, but this is not listed as a tool steel from suppliers, such as W1 is. Do I actually need "tool" steel?

 

I'm sure the info is here some where, but I've found little, or at least little with the clarity or direction I need at this point. So which steel type should I be looking to buy? or if you can point me to the info I could read on my own, I would be glad to so, as I want to understand more about the different types also.

 

If you have a supplier recommendation that would be great also.

 

 

[EtownAndrew]

For springs you should be able to get them at a scrap yard. Call the scrap metal dealers in your area and find one that lets you walk around and pick out steel that you can buy. A typical price is 35 cents per pound. Pretty much every time I visit a scrap yard there is some sort of high carbon spring steel laying on the ground. What you can find will vary from flat springs to automotive and truck coil springs. I have also found old hay rake tines. The current scrap yard that I frequent is so nice that they will even torch cut off a piece if you do not want the whole thing. Not all will do that.

 

My experience with spring steel is that it's strength limit seems to show itself on smaller punches. I have about decided that a 1/8" hole punch is too small to make from spring steel. A 1/4" hole punch seems to be the minimum at least for me.

[Eddie Mullins]

Andrew - I was hoping to do just what you suggested, but only 1 yard in the area will sell to public, and with my work schedule, I'm just not able to make it there very often. I have been once, I got some other materials, but no coil springs, and it seem to be a bit of a hassle on their part. I'm going to keep trying and looking locally, but would like to get something soon to tide me over, I run short on patience some times : ) , and I need the tools for some of the things I'd like to do.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Fist a question, where are you located? Chances are their is a member near you that has ben their, done that.
As to ansers, you can order "tool steel" on line or go to a place like Fasinall or grangers, but that's an expensive rout. Google steel suppliers in your area, ask the local machine shop or fabricator shop, or scrounge.
As to scrounging. For the beginner it saves $ twice, but certainly not time. Firstly you save on initial purchase, second, as you are just as likely to screw up and burn he steel, or forge it to cold and stress crack it, or break it on quench (if your making cold working tools) scrapping is my preference.
When you have a good handle on making tools by all means by good steel and make great tools.
On to scrapping. Automotive shops, particularly 4x4 and shops with alignment racks, will have springs, torsion bars, sway bars and suspension linkage. All good medium carbon stuff, as well automotive, truck and industrial (tractors, heavy equipment and forklift) shops will have broken axils, shafting and fork tines, bring forged nick nacks and then when you get your tool building down bring them a tool recagnisably from their donation.
As base ben said before rents tool places often have broken pvment breaker (jackhammer) bits for cheep. Old toos from flea markets and junk shops such as hammer heads, chisels, aligning drifts, punches and pry/ wrecking bars can all be reworked as other tools.

[Solano]

I have been using W1 from McMasterCarr, It was a referral from a member. I live 90 miles from any reasonable sized town and I bought quite a bit of tool material for what a trip to town costs in fuel. 

[Eddie Mullins]

Charles - I am in North East AR, I have joined the sate org, met a couple of local guys and a local full time smith. Scrap yards here just aren't quite what they seem to be by reading others posts on here. I am trying to build a network of sources, but it takes time, especially if you can't make it to the shops during their business hours. You have suggested a couple different places I can look into. I have hit some flea mkts, picked up monkey wrenches, vice grips, pliers, but no tool material yet. I am going to keep looking, but ready to get material yesterday LOL. There is a local steel yard here I hve bought mild steel from, but I don't know if they carry other types. If they do, I'd like to know which type to get or ask for.

 

Solano - McMasterCarr is one of the suppliers I am considering if I order. I agree, I consider my fuel costs running around all over for the chance to get materials as part of the cost. I'm ready to make tools already : ) .

[Rich Hale]

Almost every area has some kind of racing,,,,demo derbies,,stock cars, trucks,,etc,,,everyone thar races had extra parts,,,most will gladly part with a spring or three and you should be able to work with the houirs they keep.

There are better steels for later on for you for this use, like S-7 or H-13 ,,,they are hard to learn on,,,springs will do well for a long time. And there is sections on here for heat treating and you can learn alot about steels if you spend time reading them.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Eddie,

 

I have found a few dealers on Ebay that have very fair prices on H 13 ,  4140  ,  and  S7..  Why spend all day messing with junk yards to find unknown steel..

I just finished some for my small in town shop that I made from H13 and 4140..  One thing if you want springs and axles is to go to the local truck and auto repair shops an give the a heads up on what you are looking for..  Most of the time that sort of thing goes in the dumpster..

 

I wish you well.......Jim

[Frosty]

There's not much I can add Eddie. New steel is always easier to work with though it's not going to come at scrap or scrounge price. Unless you bring coffee and donuts to the spring shop and ask to look through their drops. then again, done well and lucking into nice guys that IS new steel at scrap or scrounge prices. <wink>

 

For springs, the auto repair, frame shops and garage door companies are the places to scrounge. Garage door companies? You BETCHA, springs for overhead doors are nice size stock for smaller punches in the 1/4"-3/8" range +/- and when they replace them they toss the old ones and they're Loooooong.

 

There's a local machine shop that repairs and replaces a lot of loader, excavator and other pins so he has a good stock of 4140 round from under 2" to over 4" and can only use it above a certain length. It's dandy die stock and inexpensive for the alloy.

 

My main addition to the topic is PR. It's amazing what a likable guy with a box of donuts can get for reasonable to free from almost any shop. A 6-pack Friday at closing time is good too but I'm always a bit hesitant to bring alcohol to ANY workplace. It's fine some places, others may have an employee with an alcohol problem and NOT appreciate the temptation. This is a play it by ear and be careful thing.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[lupiphile]

I have literal  buckets of spring steel , I've gleaned from the railroad tracks near my house. If you can find a main line that they've done any kind of track work on in the last twenty years you'll be set. I go for the tie plate springs  they run about 3/4x7/8, and when straitened  are about 10- 14" long. I make almost all of my powerhammer tooling out of that stuff and am pretty much in love with it. h-13, and s-7 should really be off the table for someone starting out, It's going to leave a bad taste in your mouth, for making tools, which I think would be, terrible detriment to trying to get anywhere in this craft.. 4140 is fine enough. though also a pain to hand forge. w-1 might work just fine for alot of your purposes, and as for mail ordered steel its about as cheap as you can get. I'd caution against o-1, as being entirely unsuitable for just about any small blacksmith shop, not worth the trouble.  Jack hammer bits I also use extensively though only for heavy fullers and hammers as the jackhammer bits in my area are all 1045 or something very similar, I,E. totally useless for punches ( makes nice drifts though). Were I,you I'd also try a suspension shop they always have 5160(spring) drops by the ton if you can ask them nicely(though try not to pay more than twice scrap value for drops, It sets a bad precedent, In my area thats 15-20 cents a pound)

 

 Ok I hoped that terribly constructed paragraph helped in some capacity, Grammatic strictures are thrown out the window at 4:30 am. Take care, Matt    

[Countryforge]

A friend of mine needed some steel he bought a junker truck at a farm sale for 150 dollars. Stripped of all the coil and leaf springs and  anything else he wanted took him

 half a day , turned around and sold it to the scrap yard for 160 dollars both were happy.

[Dan C]

Good thread and lots of great suggestions already! 

 

As you said, the scrap metal yards aren't open to the public where I live either.  Home Depot sells their jack hammer bits for $5, at least around here.  Any place that rents them is going to have a bucket full.  Sometimes I hit pawn shops at lunchtime and can usually find scrap that they're just trying to get rid of.  I always take some of my forgings with me in case I can get a sale as the question of what I do with the stuff typically comes up,  You never know when or where you'll get a sale.  You can also use some of your work to barter with.  I've done well with a local railyard in trading bottle openers & beer for stock material.  I keep an eye on Craig's list, got tons of old files that are begging to be made into something.  Just learning the key words to search on is very useful.

 

Dan

[Eddie Mullins]

Lots of good ideas here, including some doughnuts : ) . I hadn't looked on ebay, but wouldn't have known which type to look for really. The shops , I need to figure outs whats here and get the time to go visit them. I have found a truck salvage that reportedly scraps some springs if not suitable for resale, but I haven't had any luck with them having any on hand when asked.

Stripping the junker truck - pretty resourceful.

 

Garage door, machine shops, rails, all more to add to the list.

 

I'm sure over time I'll build the local network.

 

4140 seems to be the most commonly reccomended steel for my application. I have seen 4140 listed as annealed or hardened. Do I want annealed since I need to shape it still, and then harden myself once done?

 

S7 I am assuming is just to hard for me to learn on or to forge by hand.

 

W1 could work, but O1 I should avoid (also too hard?).

 

5160 ok.

 

1045 no good? why?

 

H13?

 

Like I mentioned in the initial post, if theres info here or elsewhere the types of steel, what its suited for, how to heat treat, etc, I would realy like to read and learn more if you can point me in the right direction. I know ya'll don't like repeating yourselves, and I don't blame you, so if I'm missing it, I'm sorry.  I just seem to only find tid bits of info here and there (more in this thread so far that I have seen in one spot). If you have links would be great.

[Eddie Mullins]

One other thought. I have a Habor Freight local. What about repurposing a HF punch and chisle set like this one http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piece-industrial-punch-and-chisel-set-4885.html .  If I cut some of the larger ones in half and used a handle I could get about 20 chisels/puches for $10. Can these be forged and reshaped?

[Dan C]

some posts you might find useful. 

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/31855-making-punches/

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/20191-heat-treating-and-forging-jackhammer-bits/

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/18545-questions-about-making-tools/

 

On the HF tools, I'd say try the following which I copied from another posts.  Credit goes to someone else on this forum, I just saved it in an email.

 

Basically you cut off some of the excess metal from your piece and roughly forge it to approximate cross section that you will be trying to achieve. Then you heat to above non magnetic and quench in warm oil and check for hardness with a new file. File skates off then you are hard (if the piece shatters in the quench then it's too hard! May be an air quenching steel in that cross section!). File bites in, then reheat and try quenching in water or brine and check hardness. Still not hard enough to skate a file then it's not a good alloy for knives using blacksmithing heat treats (possible may be some weird alloy requiring precise heat treating in computer controlled systems---unlikely but possible. Most likely it's a low carbon steel.)

You don't do this on the piece you are going to use because if it shatters you have induced such stresses in the piece you were going to work and it should be discarded.

That's the first step. Second step is learning the correct tempering temp.

[Eddie Mullins]

dcraven - thanks for the reply and links. Your links lead me to a couple of others.

 

http://www.steelforge.com/alloys/?alloy=4140  this has some good general info on steels, tempering, etc. Great reading for me, would like even more.

 

and

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/10211-slitter-geometry/?hl=+slitter%20+brian  one of the best threads I have read on here.

 

 

I have called the local steel yard and they do carry 4140. Its $20 for a 12 ft stick of 5/8" round bar. I figure I can get about 20 +/- chisels/slitters/punchers from it, so about $1 each, and I can get it today without wasting gas money : ) .

 

 

I think I have a decent understanding of the whole HT process, but thats gonna be a learning curve also.

[VaughnT]

I definitely agree with buying new steel as opposed to working with "found" metals.  Not to say that you can't make nice stuff from car springs, but it's a guess as to what it is and how to heat treat it for maximum effect.  Sure, if you find a coil spring on the side of the road, grab it and re-purpose it.  

 

But don't hesitate to buy the right size stock from an online resource and go to it.  In the end, it's every bit as cheap while often being easier and faster.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Ed,

 

Now your cookin on the front burner ...  It does not make any sense to wander through a scrap yard for 20 bucks ..  Once you get your 4140 going your way try some h-13 for hot work... I only air harden it and dress it as required... Harder to forge but slick stuff...  Your tools now will last you a lifetime..

 

 

Keep your head and keep forging    Jim

[Eddie Mullins]

Thanks guys. I have the 4140 in hand. Making some trial runs with A36 to get the forging to shape process some practice first. I hope to be making tools out of the 4140 this weekend.

[Black Frog]

For some 5160 stock of 3/8" diameter, call a few of your local garage door installers/businesses. Just this week I called a few to ask about finding some old or broken springs. No luck with one, but when I told the second business what I wanted the springs for, he was intrigued. He said I could stop by and we could take a look through their recycling dumpster.

I took along a forged bottle opener in my pocket, and when I met the owner I explained this is some of the work I do. I showed him the opener and he thought that was really neat- I told him to keep it and that it was for him. I got all the scrap I want now of that thinner dia spring steel. ;) he said to call him in a month or two and he may have some bigger dia scrap for me.

A little forged item goes a long way....

[Frosty]

EXACTLY Black Frog guy, a little PR goes a long way. Gifting the boss is good but if you want to make points with the person who knows everything and has everybody's ear, gift the secretary. A little nice goes a long way.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Eddie Mullins]

Black Frog - a little bottle opener or something small like that I can keep in the truck is a good idea. Pretty good way to break the ice on a cold call.

 

I stopped by a truck shop Tuesday, they didn't have anything but were nice and said to check back, and asked me if I had a card. I told them no it was just a hobby for me. Back when I was more active with hunting events with my dogs, I actually had some cheap (Vistaprint) business cards made up just so when I met new guys it was easy to give them my contact info to keep in touch. I might do the same for this as well.

 

Frosty - your probably spot on again with gifting the secretary, not sure she'd be too impressed with a bottle opener, maybe a small split cross?

 

I think I'm gonna make up some different "smalls" to keep in the truck, it'll give me practice and be cheap price for good scrap sources.

[Dan C]

I've started keeping something small like an opener that I forged in my pocket with my wallet.  It forces me when I pay for something to pull it out first when paying for something.  Most of the time it goes unnoticed, but there's been many occasion where it's either gotten a sale or at least some interest.  The majority of the time I go for a soft sale, putting it out there and then giving information if asked for.  The exception is when I'm at a store and they try to sell me something additional to what I'm purchasing.  I figure if they can try to push something on me I can return the favor.

[Frosty]

Eddie: You do have to target your market and a bottle opener may not go well. How about a letter opener, maybe a unopened letter holder like the one shown in another thread here. Memory fails. <sigh> A split cross could be a winning gift but check her office first, she may not be religious or christian. It's a good one but you gotta be careful. Candle holders are always nice as are flowers and if she's on the heavy side a long handled shoe horn can be a game winner.

 

Two basic tacks to take with secretary gifts. First is something for the office to make her job a little easier or just bring a smile to her face. Second is something NOT for the office to help get her mind OFF work. making this call is really hard without knowing who you're hoping to befriend. Still, some clues can be strong enough to be obvious even on first glance.

 

Maybe packing a couple different small goodies to cover all the bases. Then again, sounding like a tinker's wagon might not make a professional impression.

 

Now on to the reason I checked in on this thread without hitting new info check. I had to run some errands after getting the summer tires on the Saturn and stopped by Burger King. Standing at the counter waiting for my order I noticed the fellow next to me was wearing a jacket saying  "Garage Doors of Alaska." thinking about this thread I struck up a conversation, we chatted for a few minutes and I have his card, give him a call and he'll set a pile of springs aside from the dump run load so we can pick em up.

 

I'll be passing the number and resource thing along to the Alaskan club so the guys here can take advantage. This is almost too easy, strike up a conversation, tell them what you do and ask the question. I'm more successful than not. Folk running a business have their own PR to think of and helping folk out, especially if it doesn't come out of their pockets is a potential sale and good word of mouth.

 

Blacksmithing has a popular mystique, be nice and you might be surprised.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dan C]

Definitely target your audience.  Maybe something like this for the secretary or search the forum.  S hooks are always nice.  Very useful & easy to make.

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/gallery/image/28956-close-up-pendent/

 

Here's my proof from today that what Frosty has said works!  At Home Depot I was looking to see if they carried wooden hammer handles, I've been asked to forge a spike into a small axe.  Anyway they didn't so I passed thru the rental dept. and noticed the bucket w/ all the jack hammer bits wasn't there.  Previously they sold them for $5 each.  I asked what happened to it since I recently made the ones I had into hardy tools and the guy said it was outside as they'd cleaned up.  When I said what I use them for the blacksmith "mystique" struck a cord and he gave me two of them.  When I gave him one of my wrench bottle openers as a thank you (cost me 50 cents & 5 minutes maybe to make) he said to take what I wanted and that they'd have more in a few weeks and to check back.

 

Not to be too greedy, but here was what I could reasonably carry.  More hardy tools soon!

 

Then I stopped at a pawn shop, found a bunch of old chisels, a pry bar & punches that I'll reforge.  When I go to check out I try to determine which counter person is going to give me the better deal.  A young teenager or young woman typically does give me a lower price, but never be afraid to leave your collection at the counter and walk.

 

Dan