Mild Steel for struck tools

[Ridgewayforge]

Hi all,

I was wondering tonight if mild steel can be used as material for top and bottom fullers and swedges. I know that it might not be ideal, but it makes more sense to me to use 3/4" round mild as the starting stock and make some instead of sourcing some reasonably priced carbon steel to make these tools, of which I need.

Is there  a great advantage to using tool steel? Becuase they will be used on hot metal, I would believe that they would hold up well, although I'd like some more experienced opinions.

Thank you,

Patrick

RidgewayForge

[VaughnT]

There's no reason you can't use mild steel for 99% of your tools used for hot work.  

[nuge]

The obvious, tool steel will last longer, mild steel is fine. A lot of guys will say if your gonna make a tool, make it to last. My approach much of the time (not all) is to make it fast. To me this means having a nice belt grinder and welder.

[andys MQ]

To my way of thinking if it is a heavy edged tool it want be damaged too too much. As in as a bottom fuller it should be not too bad but for anything with a sharp edge even just like a 90 degree edge will be deformed quite quickly. That is just my opinion I haven't actually tried it though

[John B]

Mild steels are fine for fullers and swages, you can always case harden them to give them wear resisting properties.

 

To surface harden mild steel the "traditional" way,

Take a spoonful of wholemeal flour, add two spoonfuls of salt, add a little water and make into a smooth paste.

Heat the end of the item to be hardened until the paste will stick to it,

When you have the item coated where you want it, heat the area to a bright red heat and plunge the item into cold clean soft water. The coated area will be appreciably harder.
 

 

The key to using mild steel based tooling is that what they are being used on should be at forging temperatures until the finished size is attained. 

[JNewman]

It depends on what you are using to hit the tool as well as the profile of the tool.  For swages and  large radius fullers used under a hand hammer or treadle hammer you can get a fair life out of mild steel tools.   You might even get a decent life out of them on a small power hammer or used with a striker. Anything with sharper edges needs to be a higher carbon steel.  As well a large power hammer will quickly destroy just about any mild steel tool unless they are used gently for minimal use.

[781]

Normally on struck tools the struck end wears out first.

If you find an old handled tool and look at a new one there was a lot more material above the handle than the old worn out one.

As this pertains to the question of mild steel when the stuck end starts to bulge it needs to be reheated and forged back dont let it continue to bulge till pieces start to slit off

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I use top and bottom tools almost every day. I offer classes where people make their own hammers and all the tools it takes to make the tools. I also do a few group classes where I furnish all the top and bottom tools for people to do the same. I would not suggest using mild steel for these types of tools for different reasons. First and probably most important is the cost and availability of materials. Medium carbon steels like 4140 and 5160 are available worldwide as drops or scrap in many different sizes, and I've been able to get these steels for free for many years. The maintenance of the tools is another major factor. Mild steel will not hold up as well even when case hardened. If you use your tools, you will find that they need to be maintained. Also, there is no need to go through the extra step of hardening them as these steels are tougher all the way through and I use them as forged.

[Timothy Miller]

I gave up on mild steel for tools a long time ago.  Though I do use it for tongs and bending jigs. 90% of the time when i make a forging tool I make it to last I use a hardenable steel appropriate for the tool being made.  At this point I have broken enough tools to know its worth making a tool as good as you can justify.  Nothing like having a tool fly apart half way thru a job or deform to the point that it is useless. You have lost the labor that went into the original tool and you need to make a new and better one. If you stick with this strategy you after a wile end up with a bunch of nice tools to work with.  As time goes on work gets easier and tasks are completed more quickly the time invested pays you back.  Less ans less you think I cant do it that way because it will take too long.  As said above there are many good sources of scrap/surplus steel that one can take advantage of.  Things like leaf springs often 5160, old car axles often 4140 or similar, fork lift blades not sure but works like 1045,  Jackhammer bits 1045, Pandrol clips 1070,  and road grader blades.  It may require some testing to figure out the exact heat treatment on scrap steel but if you get a big chunk its worth the trouble to cut off a small piece and play.

[chocbloc]

it has been known in the past that some people who wished to keep their top tools in good order have made sledge hammers from mild steel as it is easier to keep dressing the head of the hammer as and when needed and to make a replacement hammer again as when needed (ie only works if all your top tools are made from a decent carbon steel and will save you from having to dress the heads)

[FieryFurnace]

I would add that a lot of that depends on what it's going to be used for. If you are making a top or bottom fuller that's going to be used with a hand-hammer, then you might get by with it. However, if you are making tooling for heavy forging and sledge or power hammer work, you should not go with mild.

 

I make mild steel drifts and jigs, but that's about it. I'd make my drifts out of carbon if I had enough sizes of the stuff.

 

You'll simply spend less time grinding or reforging the faces.

 

Try you local salvage yard for car axles and heavy springs. 1/2-inch and bigger coil spring and axles are great material. I had to bug my salvage man to death before he started collected coils and axles, but now, I can go up there any time and pick up a dozen each. $5 for axles and $10 for coils. I can get a good 5 or 6 bottom tools from a single axles. It's something like 4140 and holds up really nice without tempering.

[Ridgewayforge]

Well, I am convinced now that Carbon Steels are the way to go. Someone mentioned using leaf spring. All I have is leaf spring that is 1/4 thick or thereabouts: how would I make usable tools with it?

Dave, do you use 1/2" coil spring for just punches and drifts, or do you use it for other tools as well? I am going to be making top and bottom fullers and swedges, really. I am going to be using a hand hammer for the time being. Nevertheless, I want my tools to last well after I am gone. (or as long as humanly possible!)

[Timothy Miller]

Well, I am convinced now that Carbon Steels are the way to go. Someone mentioned using leaf spring. All I have is leaf spring that is 1/4 thick or thereabouts: how would I make usable tools with it?

Dave, do you use 1/2" coil spring for just punches and drifts, or do you use it for other tools as well? I am going to be making top and bottom fullers and swedges, really. I am going to be using a hand hammer for the time being. Nevertheless, I want my tools to last well after I am gone. (or as long as humanly possible!)

Your best bet would be car and truck axles they are thick enough and easy to get from scrap and junk yards.

[Francis Trez Cole]

if its a tool i am going to use over and over again I invest in tool steel if it is just a one time thing use mild and the gunther quench

[FieryFurnace]

Well, I am convinced now that Carbon Steels are the way to go. Someone mentioned using leaf spring. All I have is leaf spring that is 1/4 thick or thereabouts: how would I make usable tools with it?

Dave, do you use 1/2" coil spring for just punches and drifts, or do you use it for other tools as well? I am going to be making top and bottom fullers and swedges, really. I am going to be using a hand hammer for the time being. Nevertheless, I want my tools to last well after I am gone. (or as long as humanly possible!)

 

Use car axles for swages and fullers....the handled ones that is.

Hand held tools are easily made from coil spring in sizes from 1/2-inch to 3/4-inch. It's also great material for tongs as well.

[Ridgewayforge]

Well, while we're on the topic... What CAN I use leaf spring for? Is it only relegated to use as knives?

I suppose a spring fuller can be made from 1/2" coil spring without too much difficulty, right?

[aessinus]

Well, while we're on the topic... What CAN I use leaf spring for? Is it only relegated to use as knives?

I suppose a spring fuller can be made from 1/2" coil spring without too much difficulty, right?

I used a 4" chunk of ~1/2" thick truck spring to make the upright blade for a hot cut like in Brian B's video.  Tubing for the shank & a welded collar, since I was hesitant about my ASO.  Works sweet as fabricated.  Holding the edge much better than the old hardy I had.

[David Gaddis]

Not all coils spring is 1/2 inch. Should you be able to access a good scrap place then you may find some coils of near 13/16 and above. They may come from some of the suburbans and larger pickup trucks. One ton Dodge pickups use a big spring too. In repair shops the mechanics change out those items because they have lost their "spring height" so a vehicle sits unevenly. The shop just wants scrap price for the materials. Trading with "trinklets" such as leaf key holders helps insure the deal.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

Carry on

[David Gaddis]

Not all coils spring is 1/2 inch. Should you be able to access a good scrap place then you may find some coils of near 13/16 and above. They may come from some of the suburbans and larger pickup trucks. One ton Dodge pickups use a big spring too. In repair shops the mechanics change out those items because they have lost their "spring height" so a vehicle sits unevenly. The shop just wants scrap price for the materials. Trading with "trinklets" such as leaf key holders helps insure the deal.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

Carry on

[ThomasPowers]

Since leafsprings are pretty commonly available for scrap rate or cheaper; I'd not spend the time and effort trying to use on not the correct thickness for the tools you want to make but rather visit your local truck repair place and explain that you are a blacksmith needing some old spring pieces to make tools from.   Make sure you don't break the springs in your vehicle hauling off your finds!

 

RR car or dump truck springs are usually thicker than semi truck springs and I once got a coilspring from an earth mover that was made from 1.5" round stock!

[rockstar.esq]

I went to a 4x4 shop that installs lift kits.  They simply dump the old springs in a pile behind the shop.  I was allowed to take whatever I wanted.  Some of the springs were so new that the paper stickers from the manufacturer were perfect.