Guest Johnnie Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I recenty found this on the web and want to forge a few of them as I think they would make great christmas presents. In your view would it be possible to knock them out using a jig??? Really need matching pairs and forging the perfect radius isn't my strong poin especially when they have to match I am thinking of using 20x10mm bar for this. Any advise would be a lot of help. Thanks lots! John (confused) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator51 Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I am not sure what your skills are. If you are not you may want to think about next years gifts. If you can do the basics well then this should not be a challenge at all. It is not a begginer project..That said why not make one and see how it goes. Jigs can help in some cases. Turning the radiuses over the horn is one of the basics another is tapering..combine those and you have a lot of it done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Well, that's a pretty votive candle holder. Whenever I'm making myultiples of an item or a few that have to match I think about making a jig. It also depends on the complexity. That piece you have would demand a pretty interesting jig. It looks like square bar and tapered on both ends plus lots of curling. 20mm seems a bit large. If it were only a few I would free hand this one. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 Pat is right, that would be one or two pretty difficult jigs. Try doing one freehand in say 13 mm round just to see how it goes. I remember doing a pair once (kinda the same only different)and thought ''matching pair'' was to do a 'mirror' image of the first and that made it twice as hard, but they looked cool together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 if you need to do it more than once, make a jig.........I can see how to make one for that piece, but not sure if it would translate well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 If you do enough of them you won't need one and you would have many appreciative friends :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Johnnie Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 if you need to do it more than once, make a jig.........I can see how to make one for that piece, but not sure if it would translate wellrthibeau please have a go at the translation, as the multi angle radius's have throwm me. My skills (I think) are up for this but it will take a lot of coal, time and swearing to get there! And this will be just the first one then double of the above for the second, third and so on for them to match. A jig is the way forward for me but cant ''see'' it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I would NOT use a jig for those! They are complex enough that a jig will be more problems than help. I would not worry too much about perfect symmetry either as imperfect symmetry is usually much MORE interesting! As an artist I call that DYNAMIC symmetry and consider it, not a flaw, but a SUPERIOR design strategy! Small variations will make the pieces more interesting and I would likely deliberately introduce some differences as I worked along! A jig is the way BACKWARD not forward! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken leedy Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Instead of making them exactly alike, make them exactly similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I agree with Ken! Do you really want to say: "I spent my time and energy and skills to make you a hand made item *just* like the one someone else made!" If you are worried about symmetry make several of them and then group them in pairs that are "closest". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 It looks like 3 to 4 turns around a set dimension and when turned inside out my kids do that to there slinky all the time. I get stuck trying to untangle it when it happens. I feel it is great to try to emulate an other blacksmith. But I try to learn and come up with my own design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Roy Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I like Ken's approach to the problem: exactly similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 I don't think a "jig" is appropriate for a piece like this, I do though think perhaps the maker had a "former" to work on, so that the loops appear of the same size? I would think maybe a section of large diameter round pipe to form the loops around, alternatively. That's my guess. Getting two identical is the thing that can be done with a lot of practice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 As close to a jig as I'd come for this project is a marked section of a cone mandrel or the horn for the closed scroll. The tail is just a matter of a scrolling fork and chalk sketch on the table. Making similar pieces holds more appeal than identical ones, anyone can buy identical items at a store. Hand made is something to brag about, when was the last time you heard someone brag about a mass produced thing or how much it cost? Getting a uniform taper that long takes practice but practice has it's own rewards. The scroll needs the same, practice. The only significant change I'd make is the pointy end of the tail, I'd put a finial scroll on it or blunt it, it's just too poky to come from my shop. I'd feel really l ow if someone's kid dropped it on their foot and it poked a hole in them. That's just me though. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Frosty, I'm the same about pointy stuff, any sharp tapers get a little curl at the end. I started doing it when my daughter was two and would run around in the showroom next to my forge, and have continued with the practice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 Looks like you roll a corkscrew and pull it apart. Very interesting looking. Start with some clay and see what you come up with. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted November 26, 2012 Share Posted November 26, 2012 That piece doesn't look at all complicated to me. Were I to guess as to how it was done, I'd say that the smith wrapped a tapered piece around a bit of pipe to form a coil. He then pulled one end to get it relatively straight, forming the bit to the right of center in the pic. The part to the left of center is just a few coils that were bent hither and yon. Not saying I could do it on the diamond or with so few hammer marks, but that's definitely the technique I'd use before I'd even think about making jigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Just do two at the same time, do each bend one after the other while one heats bend one then while that heats do the same bend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Johnnie Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Thanks guys for the array of comments, I will definatly try a few without the jig and yes your right about the hand made look. Last night a friend asked me to make two large candle holders for her wedding table and needs them early next year. Think I will start with drawing the taper and center punch where each radius ''should'' start and carry on from there. As soon as I get them done I will get some pictures on here. Thanks again for the ideas and advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuge Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 There is a case to be made for making a pattern or jig for this kind of work, if you plan on multiples. Complex sweeping arcs and loops like the photo are a really appealing use of the material and when you put two together that are exact it's a wonder to the viewer. I'm all for slight variations and all but if you want to add something like this to your line of goods then you best make some forms. Trying to hand roll even more than a couple would be frustrating and tough to not look amateurish. If you have a nice pattern then you can bust out as many as you want. What will you do when a friend of the giftee wants a set? Go back to your notes? Been there, done that, it's painful. This guy, Jack Brubaker, does all his swoopy candle holders(made of pipe) with jigs, patterns, whatever you wanna call them. They look like you would imagine, multi-planed, multi -stage forms where you take nice long heats and clamp as you go. The jigs themselves are really beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 There's nothing wrong with jigs, scroll forms and the like especially if ''multiples'' are what the job calls for....you'll still find that no two are exactly alike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borntoolate Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I think you could make one to see how it feels to do it. Then make as many as you think you need but do them all a little bit at a time. This may take a while but do part of a bend. Then make all the rest the same. Use the first as your go by. LAy them all side by side to be sure they are "similar". No need to be identical. Tweak them to similar before moving on. Then proceed to the next part of the bends. Progress through them step by step progressing to final product making and maintaining them similar as you go using the same approach for each. Same heat, same hammering / bending. This might take 5 or 10 heats each. When done you can probably tweak them cold as long as you stay close to similar as you progress. I find duplication to be an interesting challenge. I also believe it teaches you a lot about consistancy, hammer control, visual precision and all sorts of stuff. In the end "you will see" all sorts of inconsistencies. Others will see unigueness, hand made variation and art. As long as you don't screw it up to bad. :P Once again... think... SIMILAR not Identical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Evers Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 I just finished a somewhat similar project - my better half saw a picture of some jump cups (support for the rails in horse jumping competition) that she liked. No real forging, just some complex bends on 3/8" stock. She wanted 16 (8 pair). Asked if we should order at about 20 bucks a pair with shipping or have me make them. I said about $2 each for material, the first two pair would take about an hour each, the next six pair about an hour total. Time estimate was about right - I was getting good at the end. Another 8 pair would be fast. The only jig I used was a section of 6 inch channel to form the cup. They were identically similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Take the song, "Streets of Laredo," speed it up, and it becomes a jig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Good one, Frank!!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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