Extra blows

[Borntoolate]

extra blows don't make sense to me. Though yes I do let the hammer rest/fall on the anvil and it taps or does a rapid fading chattering drum roll. I can also see me doing this at times when I am unsure. You get into a rythm then about mid hammer drop you get unclear what to do so the hammer drops on the anvil or maybe you tap it once, twice...

I think some of this is learned by watching or learning from others. I have seen a few videos where this particular young person has had a good bit of training from one of the experienced folks on this site and I see the hammering is near identical. Including the extra taps.

[george m.]

Dear All,

Thanks to everyone who has replied.

From exeryone's responses it seems to me that whether a smith does it is largely the function of what they were taught. If the person who taught them did it they will, if not, not. There does not seem to be much "wrong" with it and there does not seem to be much "right" either. There seem to be plenty of good smiths from either school.

I don't think I will try to develop the habit after all these years. It does seem to me to be kind of a nervous tic that doesn't accomplish anything. It may be that people who do do it started doing it because that was how their mentor did it and now think about why they do it and have to come up with justifications for it. The energy saving argument seems fallacious to me. The bounce of a good anvil is only about 80% of the energy used to raise the hammer. You have still lost at least 20% of the energy used to lift the hammer if it is only bouncing off the anvil. Besides, most of the tapping I've seen on videos is only a small lift and a quick tap or two, not a full strength blow redirected to the anvil face.

Maybe I'm just an old White guy who "ain't got no rythm" but I've never felt thrown off if I don't hit with a regular tempo. The idea that "I have to hit 1 blow/second or everything goes screwy" strikes me as kind of wierd.

I will say that when I see it done on a video I find it kind or irritating and seemingly wasteful of time and energy. I think that the smith should just hit the metal to get the most efficient use of time and energy. If he or she needs to think about something just stop and think. If thinking is needed while hitting just return the work to the fire and think the thought through. There is probably not enough time between a couple of blows to really process anything.

Taplessly,
George M.

[billyO]

Hello all. One more thought on the anvil tapping. In my experience, if you use the hammer like you are 'throwing' the head at the work like some smiths talk about, you have a very light grip on the hammer and when I do the occasional tapping, its to readjust my grip on the hammer, either to correct for minor twisting from poorly aligned hits around the axis of the handle, or to make minor adjustments along the length of the handle when I feel that my grip is sliding back from the balance point of the handle, making my wrist "radial deviators" (as we say in the physical therapy field) work harder when picking up the hammer for the next blow. Which, if unreasolved, will give a good case of tendonitis.

I also do this to adjust my grip on handles of hammers that don't fit my hand very well. I've got rather long, skinny fingers and skinnier handled hammers make me adjust more.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

For all those non-tappers, draw a point on a 1 1/4 inch jack hammer bit in one heat, and then get back with us. Or better yet, do a longer taper on 3/4 inch stock where you change the side of the hammer you strike with from time to time.

Borntoolate, Alec was hammering like that before he came to see me. Alec had more hammer experience than anyone I have ever worked with, and he got it from sharpening jack hammer bits with a 4 pound hammer before he came here in one heat. He was also the first and only student that forged the taper on a hammer drift in 5 heats with a 5 pound hammer. The starting material was 1 1/4 inch round 4140, and he almost 5 foot tall and weighed 88 pounds. Relaxing and letting the hammer do the work will enable anyone to hammer without hurting themself. Watch that young man throw a hand hammer or a sledge. He was striking with a 20 pound sledge at a class he helped me teach in Montana.

[David Gaddis]

There is little or no doubt that Alec Steele is a talented and strong smith, besides not being old enough by a long measure to buy a beer. SInce I have seen him smithing and what he can do if he wants to beat the heck out of the anvil to a hillbilly tune is okay by me. For anyone else if the dinging of the anvil bothers you then turn down the volume...remember there are more highways to travel down. It really is a matter of how one feels inside after he completes the task


Carry on.

[george m.]

Dear Brian,

Are you saying that a (or most) tappers can accomplish the task but a (or most) non-tappers cannot? Or are you saying that one specific tapper can accomplish the task and if a person (tapper or non-tapper) cannot they are not qualified to participate in the tap/nontap discussion?

Logically,
George M.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

No, George. I said what I said.

[basher]

let it flow, tap or don't tap.
I do.
and for me it is to not break the flow of work when thinking for a fraction of a second. and to allow a very small rest between hard hits.
Its a habit. I even do it when knocking tent pegs into soil.......go figure.

[george m.]

Dear Brian,

Yes, you did and I'm trying to get some clarification because I'm unclear on your meaning. This is one of the problems of electronic communication. You don't get tone of voice, facial expression, body language, or are able to immediately respond to clarify something.

You said, "For all those non-tappers, draw a point on a 1 1/4 inch jack hammer bit in one heat, and then get back with us. " The "then get back with us" seems to me challenging and implies that if a person doesn't tap they won't be able to "draw a point on a 1 1/4 inch jack hammer bit in one heat" which it turn implies that tapping is better than non-tapping and is the correct technique.

Am I correct in your meaning or did you mean something else and I have completely missed it? Please clarify. I'm really trying to understand. You are an excellent smith and I hugely respect your opinion but I'm honestly confused.

Yours,
George M.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

George, I simply suggested that anyone do a taper in one heat on a large piece of steel, and report to everyone their experience.

[Borntoolate]

For all those non-tappers, draw a point on a 1 1/4 inch jack hammer bit in one heat, and then get back with us. Or better yet, do a longer taper on 3/4 inch stock where you change the side of the hammer you strike with from time to time.

Borntoolate, Alec was hammering like that before he came to see me. Alec had more hammer experience than anyone I have ever worked with, and he got it from sharpening jack hammer bits with a 4 pound hammer before he came here in one heat. He was also the first and only student that forged the taper on a hammer drift in 5 heats with a 5 pound hammer. The starting material was 1 1/4 inch round 4140, and he almost 5 foot tall and weighed 88 pounds. Relaxing and letting the hammer do the work will enable anyone to hammer without hurting themself. Watch that young man throw a hand hammer or a sledge. He was striking with a 20 pound sledge at a class he helped me teach in Montana.

You are quick Brian! The reason I did not mention any names was because I have to respect the skill of you both and so what I think of the "extra" taps is just what I think and neither right nor wrong. Probably more likely to be wrong! It's interesting that If you both, in my opinion, hammer in a vary similar way, including the tapping..... And this is prior to you and Alec linking up! Maybe there is more to this tapping than meets the eye?

I watched a Blacksmith CD recently wherein the Blacksmith specifically called out the fact that he does not do extra tapping. That it is wasteful he said. However, there were a few extra taps thrown in here and there. But not many. So the guy who called out against it also had a few taps here and there. Don't recall the name.

As for George's challenge/clarification I am still also a little confused too. I am not a great smith by any stretch so I feel a little out of place to challenge.... I do find I can swap my hammer face (the one we made) on the upswing so don't need the taps to do that. Is the tapping also a chance to rest just a little? This is perhaps implyed by your examples above with heavier stock? I will go back and look at you and Alec in regard to just hammer technigue since I am out of town and don't have access to my wee little smithy.

What I see in your hammering is very deliberate, well thought out and not rushed but quite effective. It seems your tapping helps you accomplish that. But who am I to assume I know what you are thinking. I only know what I am thinking... at least part of the time. :blink:

By the way, no offense intended, Alec and Brian. Alec, maybe you good give us your two cents on this.

[george m.]

Dear Brian,

I apologize for being so dense but I don't see what being able to draw out a large piece of steel in a single heat has to do with tapping or not tapping.

Anyway, happy Turkey Day.

Thankfully,
George M.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

No offense taken. To accomplish the taper suggested, it would be best to use an appropriate hammer, so you can relax and let the hammer do the work. It is not strength that enables me, Alec, or anyone else to do that taper. It is technique. Like I said on the first page of this thread, I am merely setting my hammer to the side most of the time and it bounces. I would have to bear down to stop it or hold it in the air, neither of witch I would want to do. If I'm just doing a job, I'd be moving faster and I don't lay my hammer to the side as much, but I try and explain forging to people who are interested, so I slow down so they can see. I lay my hammer to the side more. Also, I will bounce my hammer up to start it. I don't want to pick up dead weights. If you ever feel like you are pumping iron and your muscles start burning, you are not relaxed and you should probably be using a bigger hammer.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Alec you should explain it, you can probably do better than I.

[Wroughton]

George,

You can't just pile into a large taper without a little rest. But by drawing and building the heat with blows towards the tip, AND resting "tap" every once in a while to realign the eye, ruminate, relax the grip, or spin the hammer to change faces you can pull the taper in one heat. Charging at it with nary a tap, or without a striker, you won't last long enough to do much more than put a point on it.

As BillyO stated earlier, and I find this is the case for me, I reposition my hand from top to bottom on the handle on the rebound of the drop onto the anvil face. I do this especially when forging a taper as I move from drawing to finishing. Very few other jobs on the anvil can require such a
large amount of time just purely smacking the work. Chamfering door kick plates and trim pieces are about the only other thing I can think of and I definitely give it a break tap or two while I'm trying to get the most out of my heat.

Superfluous tapping should be avoided, but tapping definitely has a place.

[yesteryearforge]

:)

[Alec.S]

Well........ I will write this in bullet point form as I have homework to start and it is getting late! :P
-I was not taught to tap on the anvil. It is something i feel i picked up as my technique progressed and i definitely feel it helps me to forge more efficiently.
-The tap i think is for several reasons:
-It feels natural as a means of letting your hammer drop if you are mid swing, instead of having force yourself to stop it in the air. When you are a small guy with a comparatively heavy hammer... stopping it is not an easy option.
-It gives me rhythm... because if i'm not swinging... i want the rhythm maintained so starting to swing again in the same rhythm is easier.
-I find rhythm an important thing because it keeps everything in time. It keeps your hammer hand and your left hand; holding the workpiece in time. It helps you lift the hammer up and bring it up in a relaxed way because you do not have to force yourself to hit at the right time.
-When turning the workpeice in as controlled of a degree as possible, it lets you have more time while also keeping ryhthm.
-It lets you have a break
-it lets you have a split second more to examine what/how many blows need to be where/when for it to be accomplished more efficiently
-it lets you take a better grip on the handle if the need arises
-it lets you have a break

When forging big stock. All these points i just mentioned become much more necessary.
-The stock is heavy, it sometimes requires more time to turn it.
-Big stock can move/bounce when an off blow is hit, your next swing will be needed not to contact where you were going to contact, other wise you would hit with all of your force onto the anvil face, so laying you hammer to one side (tapping) is necessary.
-When swinging the hammer at full force, your grip tires, one must 're-grip- the handle every so often, as mentioned, laying the hammer to one side lets you do this
-On large metal, efficiency is key, so examining the best course of action over a split second is often very useful, therefore - lay to one side (tap!)
-Try swinging a hammer for an extended period of time on thick stock as hard as you can... it gets tiring after a while, laying the hammer to one side albeit for a split second allows to to re-compose yourself, relax and become less tired.
-When forging large stock, rhythm is key because you never want to have to stop, have you also ever noticed how rhythm helps you do something with more power and purpose. Rhythm is one of the things the body it very suited to. Also, imagine working on a power hammer and stopping the power hammer completely every time you want to turn the piece, say... you don't take your foot off the pedal completely, do you? you let it idle above the work piece, while idling ..i feel one should do the same with our hand hammer, except for us, idling above the workpiece will harm us more, so, to keep us moving in rythm, we tap the anvil!... stopping and starting again is causing more stress on the 'machine' - your body!
-When forging big. Being relaxed is key so as not to over-exert yourself and ultimately damage your body. due to all these reasons, i feel tapping when the need comes about to be extremely beneficial when forging anything let alone big stock!

I hope my brief explanation was useful!
Please do question, argue, critique my argument etc.! Thinking about why I do a particular thing helps me learn more! As does listening to all your ideas! so shoot! :)

Alec Steele

P.S, look at this vid -

Look through my bullet points and then at when I tap my hammer.... it will start to make sense!! :)

[Borntoolate]

Alec, that was an awesome explanation!!!

But keep up with your home work. Schooling needs to be first.

And,

Thnank you. Very nicely stated.

Brian, You are right. Alec says it better than you. You know so much, that you have learned by experience, that now seems obvious to you. When you say it parctically makes itself does not help us. Your challenge is to remember being ignorant and how you learned. Then, teaching us, the ignorant, how too... in words.... one on one... so we can make stuff like you do!

Brian and Alec. Thanks!

[Borntoolate]

Re-watching.. It is not all about the hammering. It has a lot about the heat. We talk a lot about one heat this or that. But when I see a vid I always see a vary good, near burnage... hot heat. Beyond the hammering we need to talk more about getting a good heat!!!!! And also how we don't lose the heat,,, by laying flat on the anvil and so forth

[george m.]

Dear Alec,

At about 1:20 min. in the video, about where you are at the 8 sided stage, there is a series of blows that appear to be hit, tap, hit, tap, etc.. This seems to be a planned rhythm which appears to be different from the other taps where it appears you are shifting grip or something similar. Am I correct or am I seeing something that isn't there and am reading too much into things? If it is a preplanned thing why at that point an not elsewhere. It seems too rhythmic to just be a pause while doing something else physically or mentally.

Yours,
George

PS What weight is the hammer you are using?

[thingmaker3]

Beyond the hammering we need to talk more about getting a good heat!!!!! And also how we don't lose the heat,,,

Agreed!!

And one darn good way to loose the heat more slowly is by proper hammering! B) One excersize I use regularly is beating on a cold piece of steel to try and light paper with it after. Not there yet, but I can indeed get the end too hot to touch. Some guys can actually get it incandescent.

[Alec.S]

Thanks, Borntolate!
George.M,
At that point of the video, I am doing that because I am turning the material and I want the eight sides dead on, so tapping the anvil allows my left hand more time to turn the workpiece correctly! :)
I am using my 5 pound hammer. It is the only hammer I use except for when I am making small copper rings because the faces are too wide. Then, i use my 4 pounder.
Hope that helped! :)

Alec

[Greenbeast]

It seems almost incredible that someone can use a 4-5lb hammer for extended periods, i tend to use a 2lb ball pein mostly.

I wonder if i'm missing out?

[Spots]

It seems almost incredible that someone can use a 4-5lb hammer for extended periods, i tend to use a 2lb ball pein mostly.

I wonder if i'm missing out?

I think its more technique than brute strength. I use a 6 lb hammer for most larger stock, and a 4 lb cross pein for almost everything else.

[Chuck in Ms]

I like the "tap", I started doing it for the rest reasons mentioned above because of cramps in my fore arm. I soon found that the crowds at demos seem to draw to it (also mentioned earlier). After reading all of the above I have decided that the best thing to do is go back down to the forge.