Dillon Sculpture Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I have several stop blocks of different size but was considering a tapered block just to catch everything in between. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 I would not want a taper surface to be hit with "flat" die, might be OK if the top die had a matching taper for good contact. Or two taper pieces that ramp off each other and stay parallel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Larson Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 If you have a taper tool and hold the stock at one half the angle the flat die gives you a nicely finished taper. Grant Sarver used to tell of this, but I'm sure others do the same. Too large an angle will cause your stock to kick back, so be sure to stand to the side and hold the stock/tomgs close to your side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Good Morning, Pick up a piece of angle bar off the floor in the corner, take another piece of scrap round and saw it in half lengthwise. Weld the half-round to the inside of the angle-bar. Now you have an adjustable vise-jaw that doesn't care if the piece you are holding in the vise is round, square, tapered, or ???? Always holds firmly, regardless. Mark Aspery uses a rare earth magnet to hold it to the vise. Shop tip # 4067328 Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Hey Mike, trying to live up to the Danger moniker? I'd be really hesitant to put a tapered kiss block under a power hammer. However adjustable's not a terrible idea, just the tapered part. How about using step blocks like found in a machinist's instrument tool box? Okay a pre CNC Machinist that is. Dad's "Joe Blocks" came in lots of different thicknesses certified to within a fraction of a ten thousandth. For the odd dimensions he had the step blocks which look like a stair case. You could use a step block with another gauge block or for really odd dimensions two together. Step to step allowed some hairy small dimensions, into the millionths if necessary. Dad had a couple hundred lbs. of gauge blocks, something about doing scary close work since the Depression I think. Anyway, depending no how many steps (kisses?) <grin> you needed they could be in 1/4"/1/8"/1/16" or? steps. These would be really easy to fabricate by welding flat stock, no machining necessary unless you want to that is. <grin> There's also just about zero chance they're going to water melon seed out of the dies at you either. And that kids is MY thoughts. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 I like the idea Frosty and thanks for keeping the shrapnel out of my side... I would like to direct the question, how would you taper 1/4" per 5'-10'? I'm decent at tapering by eye, but? :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 1/4" x 5'-10'? Okay, you got me there I'd probably look to make a tapered bottom die cap of some sort. I really doubt that shallow a taper is going to come out of the hammer on it's own. What's it for? I'm thinking something needing a really HONKIN powerful wedge, say splitting 4130 Kryptonite ore? Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Michael that is SUCH a fine taper that it would be quite difficult to do with a HUGE power hammer. You probably knew this. On a small scale using a sen would be easier than forging such a delicate taper. Knowing your work I suspect that you might aspire to a scale that would make a sen impractical. I would do an intermediate scale by hand hammering in my shop... establishing steps and then beveling between them. This might be WAY too slow for the scales that you are thinking of. So maybe for you try a smaller power hammer than you'd normally use and count the blows/passes checking often as you go. This could easily lead to a bit of creep on the skin of the metal that would have to be dealt with at the ends... but you are capable. I admire your ambition as long tapers and subtle curves are my idea of fine work! You are already extremely good at both of them so these untried thoughts are the best help that I can offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 I dont understand, how will a angled block keep it to dimension? How much taper can you draw? 1/4"x2'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 1, 2012 Author Share Posted September 1, 2012 Darn, I don't know what a sen is either?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 What are the small/large dimensions desired in these kiss blocks? What degree of adjustment? I am familiar with the interlocking step blocks Frosty mentioned. They seem like a decent idea for providing adjustment. If you are interested in some largish sizes why not use some large nuts and bolts with locking bolts tapped into the sides of the nuts, and a handle attached to it somewhere. A sen is sorta like a shaper plane or block plane for steel (as opposed to wood). A sen usually rides on a separate surface instead of the material being cut... at least as I understand it. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 http://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-24257-Step-Clamp-Pair/dp/B0016K8BCC these are of course not suitable, but depict stair stepped wedges. You could have quite a range of discrete adjustment (as opposed to continuous adjustment) by making a couple wedges that interlock and bolt together to form a solid piece. I just don't know what is needed to resist and gauge a large hammer. I have little practical understanding of the forces. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted September 1, 2012 Share Posted September 1, 2012 Personally, for safety considerations, I like the idea of keeping tools used with a power hammer as simple as possible. If I had a need for multiple stop block heights, I would probably use a saddle on my lower die and have multiple (drop in) stop blocks I could use with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel.85 Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I like Daves idea, simple and effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 Thanks guys, this is the set up I have now Dave, maybe as Bigfootnampa offers a step at a time and just mellow it out in-between... Looking at a 30' to 1/2" taper starting at 3" several sections of corse, 3' heats. I guess thats just 3/8" in 42". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 You don't need taper tools or a flatter to make a smooth taper that flat. The two ways I think I can of using kiss blocks on a long taper like this are to forge or machine a bar to the same taper thickness, and use it as a kiss block that you pull out as you draw out your forged stock. I could see this being rather unwieldy with 5'10" bars. The other way would be to use a number of blocks to create a number of steps and then blend between them. I would probably just use one the size of the smaller end and use a brass rule to check the size as I worked the bar down. I think the matched stepped kiss blocks would work but for a consumable tool like a kiss block I think you would be further ahead to just make them as needed or make a set of various sizes. With the bigger hammer I have found it is necessary to use quenched and tempered alloy steel to make the kiss blocks so they stand up. Mostly I use kiss blocks with the holder shown in this thread in post 40 which was inspired by Phil's tool in post 13. I do like the fact I can remove mine quickly so i can forge bars lengthwise on the dies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 You don't need taper tools or a flatter to make a smooth taper that flat. The two ways I think I can of using kiss blocks on a long taper like this are to forge or machine a bar to the same taper thickness, and use it as a kiss block that you pull out as you draw out your forged stock. I could see this being rather unwieldy with 5'10" bars. The other way would be to use a number of blocks to create a number of steps and then blend between them. I would probably just use one the size of the smaller end and use a brass rule to check the size as I worked the bar down. I think the matched stepped kiss blocks would work but for a consumable tool like a kiss block I think you would be further ahead to just make them as needed or make a set of various sizes. With the bigger hammer I have found it is necessary to use quenched and tempered alloy steel to make the kiss blocks so they stand up. Mostly I use kiss blocks with the holder shown in this thread http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/8974-anvil-tool-holder/page__hl__%20kiss%20%20blockin post 40 which was inspired by Phil's tool in post 13. I do like the fact I can remove mine quickly so i can forge bars lengthwise on the dies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 Thanks for the link! Great thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 I gave up reading about half way down so I have no idea what has been covered... My solution for "adjustable" kiss blocks is I built a holder I can slide a chunk or chunks of 2" wide flat bar in and secure with a welded on bridge clamp.... Its got a 2" wide groove so the shim bits dont move around.... That holder drops in my die saddle.... I know a picture would be better but its just like a normal kiss block with a sq shank to drop in the die saddle but I can quickly slid anything 2" wide in there and use it as a kiss block... I have a pile of parts... 1/16, 1/8/ 1/4 and I can mix and match to stack them up to get what ever thickness I want... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted September 2, 2012 Share Posted September 2, 2012 A sen is very similar to a drawknife except being used to shave steel instead of wood. In fact I have heard of people using regular drawknives as sen. They are traditionally used with a wooden clamp bench which is very similar to a shaving horse too! I have not yet made mine but most of what I have read leads me to believe that they can shape metal much more quickly than filing and with pretty extreme accuracy. Some specialized versions are used to put grooves and hollow depressions in swords and other blades. Some sen links below... worth knowing about even if not real practical for the particular project you are working on now.http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=783http://www.anvilfire.com/21centbs/China/Chinese_bench_sen.htmhttp://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=2741&hl=sen%20scraper&st=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted September 2, 2012 Author Share Posted September 2, 2012 Thanks for the link to the sen, I had no idea. I like you idea Sam, that would give a fine control for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 4, 2012 Share Posted September 4, 2012 Adjustable kiss block: one that is a rectangular cross section so it gives two different heights depending on orientation. Better to use something you can't put in the wrong way though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 I have a set like Dave Hammer pictured with 1.25 square as the vertical tenon...The keeper is 1/2" plate around the bottom die and has two fabricated square holes welded onto the ends of that keeper so I can have two tools in place...usually a swage and a stop block...the swage being taller so it is removed to use the stop block. I have found that stop blocks are more of a suggestion than a stop. If you are not paying attention the size of the steel forge in the AM will be taller than the PM forged work due to the stop block cold forging over time. I use mild steel which may the issue...or my foot. What you can do is have a set number of "extra" blanks on hand...mine are 1.25 as the tenon...and you can have 1/8,1/4,1/2,1" stock precut and waiting to be welded on for that special in between size. I have from 1/8 to 2.5" in 1/4 sizes made up and extra stock on hand for that size I do not have. I do not like the taper idea. Forgemaster Phil...you are on a higher level of size than I...envious I am....you and Danger have me thinking about a 6B Nazel....not that I have the work for one, but.... One idea I have been meaning to try is a square tenon with a round hole...say 3/4" round and have the kiss block swing/pivot into place ..you could have two on each end and swing from front or back..for four sizes. A quick lock could be worked out I'm sure. The think with the blocks as Dave pictures them and I use is that they stay in place till you move them out...no jumping. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Furrer Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 Like Grant said, they are called kiss blocks not slam blocks. a kiss with a 3B is a slam Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted September 9, 2012 Share Posted September 9, 2012 The kiss blocks/ stoppers I use are all either 4140 or 4340. I harden and temper them all because I found they just were not lasting made out of mild steel. The steel mill shop my hammer used to be in made all their stoppers (their term) from "refined 8" which was basically 1080. They were all hand held or built into other tools such as taper tools some of them were rectangular making 2 sizes as Thomas mentioned. The problem with 2 size stoppers is that if one is fairly thin it is then too narrow a face when stood on edge, it will then break, buckle, upset or mark up the dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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