Randy Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I had a nice job to reproduce some s-scrolls for a fence in NYC. A fabricator was making the fence, but needed the forged scrolls. When I delivered them everyone kept asking how I was able to make them all the same. I just said that's what a smith does. Actually once I made up the scroll jigs to size and figured the length of material I needed the rest just moved along. There were two jigs, one for the end and another for the scroll. I've asked a number of smiths how they make scrolls and many have answered by using a scroll jig. So my next question is who made the scroll jig? If you can't make a good scroll in the first place it's hard to make a good jig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 What size of horse shoe did you use for the stock? or did you use RR spikes? :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist.... Nice work. And I like the looks of the inside of the scroll, nice touch! How many did you have to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 I forge welded the two together so no one would know. :P Thanks, but it wasn't my design. I had to copy an original. Looks like from the early 1900's. I had to make 94 of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 nice work love the anvil and shop. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 OH my Lord Thomas Dean. I am still laughing as I type. What a refreshing addition to a thread. Actually I haven't even read Randys reply yet. Will do that when I get home tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 those make really good photos randy - the pile looks great! i LOVE your workshop - its beautiful and i wish it were mine!!!! or even that mine was about a tenth as organised and well set out... NICE :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Yep Randy, nice looking scrolls. And I agree with Sam and Beth, tidy looking workshop, nice to catch a glimpse!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian.pierson Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Randy, I echo your question about how to make a jig. I want to make something like you have on the floor of your shop to fill a space between a fence and a wall at my brother's place. Either I need to find a new friend that can show me how to make one or buy a jig and go from there. Brian Pierson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 15, 2012 Author Share Posted March 15, 2012 Brian, not sure what you're asking. My comment was really that you need to know how to make a good scroll in order to make a good jig. You can't really buy someone elses' jig to work for the space and type of scroll that you need to make. My process is to draw the scroll full size on a piece of metal with chalk so I can change it until I get it right. Then I forge out the jig to fit the inside line of the scroll. I usually use material that is approximately 1-1/2 to twice the thickness of the actual scroll material. Once done the jig is welded to a piece of angle iron to fit in the vise or some other arrangement. You can see the one for this job in the hardie hole. I'm packing for my demo this weekend in Tucson so won't get a chance to answer again until Tuesday. Looking forward to seeing any of you there! Should be a lot of fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Emig Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Hey Brian, In one of the COSIRA series of books they have a great tutorial on how to make a scroll jig. Do google search for free COSIRA books, or maybe someone here can direct you to where you can find them. I think it's "the Blacksmith's Craft" that has it. The first scroll you do is difficult-but it is well worth the effort and time invested to do it. It is an invaluable skill. I make all my own scroll jigs. When I do something new like that, I always tell myself if someone else can do it, so can I (it just may take me a bit longer). Good luck and have fun. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Faster, Cheaper, Easier is probably one of the truest blacksmith mottos. Making a one off or maybe pair of items, just do it but doing as Randy has, making near a hundred and you need a jig or you're going to be an out of business blacksmith flipping burgers somewhere. It's what a blacksmith does. Well done Randy. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian.pierson Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Randy, While your question was for us, I keep asking it because I just have not been successful with scroll work. Thanks for the insight. I guess I just need more practice at making scrolls. The couple I tried just did not turn out right. I am have a problem getting the line smooth in the scrolls. Mark, I have the Cosira books in e-form and hard copy. I will return to them and reread before I try to make the jig. It is all about Carnegie hall... practice practice practice. Brian Pierson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenbeast Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Yes it is down to practice, lots of small taps and adjustments with even heat. It's certainly easiest to get it right first time than to have to adjust a deformed scroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I have not read the books described so will perhaps show my ignorance. No one has ever accused me of doing things the easy way. My experience with scrolling has been 2 fold. Hot and cold. Shop built fixtures. Fabricated ( to match a customers request) or forged ( again to match a customers request ). Neither was to match an existing scroll ( read repairs or update or restoration). To answer the question Randy, I have built my own jigs. Mostly on plate with a hole blown through to weld a piece of 1/4 pipe that fits through the pritchel on the anvil. This allows the jig to rotate and keep the stock fed in constant ( held in left hand ) and the jig to rotate ( (with a 1/2 drive impact socket welded to the fixture and a breaker bar or sometimes ratchet held in right hand). Largely 3/16 x 1 stock for this (cold). 1/4 x 1 stock for hot. I also have fixtures welded to angle that fit in the vise ( starters or sometimes just end bending fixtures to duplicate many pieces). Fixtures made are hand forged. Sometimes you hit a 4 bagger off the bat. Sometimes you tweak for a long time. Hand held bending forks and vise mounted forks both work and are needed. A large crescent with a bar through the hole in the handle works to tweak. You THEN have to make first part and even with the perfect fixture (you think) you have issues. Gas saver and a Dillon torch are your friends. Cold work is fairly consistent and can be fast. Hot work can indeed be fairly fast. Either can make you run down the street with your hair on fire when things go bad. I WILL say that consistency in raw materials ( mostly cold work by hand, no hydraulics involved) will make a large difference. New stock can vary. As noted, experience is the thing. Your time in your shop. I have no pictures of my jigs. I do have a few pics of finished goods and have attached a couple just for reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Randy, While your question was for us, I keep asking it because I just have not been successful with scroll work. Thanks for the insight. I guess I just need more practice at making scrolls. The couple I tried just did not turn out right. I am have a problem getting the line smooth in the scrolls. Mark, I have the Cosira books in e-form and hard copy. I will return to them and reread before I try to make the jig. It is all about Carnegie hall... practice practice practice. Brain Pierson Its in the Wrought Ironwork book Lesson 8 page 35http://www.hct.ac.uk/PDF/CraftPublications/WroughtIron/WROUGHT%20IRONWORK%20PART%203_tcm2-18921.pdf Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Emig Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Hey Brian, Keep at it- it took me WAY more than a couple before I could make a nice scroll and therefore a nice scroll form. Now I've done thousands of scrolls and about four 5 gallon pails of forms and a couple big drawers full too, I'm pretty good at it. It was very frustrating for me at first-then got one right and had the AHA moment and it was better from there. Just keep making them until you get it-and you will at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hi, All. Back from a great weekend demo in Tucson. Scrolls. First off once you have decided ont he type of end on the scroll then it's the shaping. Negative space is what you have to watch. Where the metal isn't. I prefer a snails shell scroll. The negative space gradually increases as the scroll grows from the end. See attached photo of a fern. To achieve this the scroll is hammered over the far edge of the anvil, not on the horn. The first bend is with a little material over the edge and each following bend is further and further over the edge. That's how you achieve the increasing negative space. Take the photo and trace it a hundred times so you have the idea in your head. As you see in the CoSira books, the English have their own way of doing things. They use top and bottom forks. That would drive me nuts, but what ever works for you. Once you figure the scroll making then you can make a jig. Make a fishtail scroll end and push it to one side so the bottomof the jig is flat and the upper side has the fish tail sticking up in the air. then make your jig fit the inside of the scroll that you need. When you use the jig you start your scroll by doing the end and the initial bend. Then that end catches the fishtail of the jig so that you can bend it around the jig. I like the idea of the ratchet but never found one big enough to hold up so I just bolted two plates together where it pivots and have holes so when I spin the jig around I can drop a pin in to hold it in place. This becomes interchangable with various jigs. If the scrolls are small I just weld the jig to a piece of angle iron and clamp it in the vise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 The above note about practice practice practice is the real key. Almost anyt hing I have tried doing with metal has required just that. To make scrolls you need to make scrolls. The background and layout from the books is invaluable. But time invested in the shop is when you will get it right. My best learning comes from research. then lab works. If there is a way you can add instruction into that it is even better and shortens the learning curve alot.One of the things to remember is when you pay for an instructor it gives you an opinion by them as to hwo your work is progressing and wot can improve it. When I took an engraving class the teacher had us learn to fre hand draw scrolls. The negative space comments above by Randy are a huge key. The progressive enlarging of that negative space was hard for me to learn. And one big thing for me is to make scrolls. Whether forged or engraved and set them aside,,look at them a day or week or whenever and study them. That big pile of scrolls at side of the anvil is simply the product of his early work. Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 With regard to what Randy says, in the UK we don't all use bending forks to make scrolls, adjust them, maybe, along with scrolling tongs, When making your scrolling jig and offsetting the fishtail end, they can be for right handed users, or left handed users, depends which way you offset the tail end, Spread the end into your fishtail, and then knock it down on edge to offset it. Trim square the end of this offset tail Place this Offset to the left when you start curving the scroll over the anvil edge if you are right handed, and to the right if you are left handed, Then start to form the scroll in small increments over the far side of the anvil Remember this scroll is not the size of the finished scroll you wish to produce, it is a replica of the inside of the required finished form. Mount as you see fit, for vise, or anvil mounting, attaching to a flat plate can limit what kinds of scroll you can produce on the tool, and different types of scroll ends will need different scroll jig forms. ie more open for snub ends, halfpenny ends, bevels, leaf ends, etc Patience and practice are advisable, Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted March 23, 2012 Share Posted March 23, 2012 Wow. This thread is nearly a tutorial. Nice work, Randy. I see you're still a Mouse Hole aficionado. Just a couple of things to consider. Scrolls have different ratios. Scrolls do not need to follow the golden rectangle, the Fibonacci series, nor Archimedes plotted spiral, although they can if you wish. And a little nit pick. When flat stock is bent the easy way, the outside corners remain high and the stock hollows and becomes a slight concavo-convex cross section in length. This is a concomitance of our work and looks nice on a finished, installed scroll. However, you don't necessarily want that shape on the scroll jig. You can obviate the problem by pre curving the length of the stock before bending. I use a botton vee swage or bottom shallow swage in conjunction with my cross peen. The resulting concavo-convex is slight but effective for the purpose. When the stock is held on the anvil, the convex side is up. After bending downward, you'll get a flat bar in the bend. I do the same when bending wide hinge barrels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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