Bozo's on the Bus....

[Bentiron1946]

One of the discussions we used to have in my "high" art classes was about the art of the so called "savages", the primitive man, was his high art better or more advanced than our high art? It was all a rather supposed deep philosophical discussion according to the Phd leading the subject but I thought at the time that perhaps their "high" art was a whole lot better than what some of folk were turning out. I was having a hard time with a black square painted on a red background with a white line through it as being high art while looking at a primitive mask that was really just fly and funky in its weirdness or Albert Paley's Running Fence, makes you want to go out and put one around your yard but is it any better than a "savages" fence? I just never wanted to paint that black square on a red background with a white line through it on my house somehow but I wanted to make a mask.

[Frosty]

hehehe Frosty, i'm not crazy, ok!!!! not in the slightest!! I'm perfectly normal, me!!!!! :blink:

That reminds me of a very dear friend of mine who was seeing a therapist for her 'ishooos'. I mused that I never felt I needed to see a therapist for anything, (denial??? lol) to which she replied, "you wouldn't, you have your art to work it through" which I thought was an interesting insight!!!

And, that is sooo true, random acts of kindness are uplifting... pay it forward. That's part of the reason why this forum can be so good!!

Your mad cackle is a true piece of ART Coleen. Brilliant, just brilliant!

Frosty the Lucky.

[Sask Mark]

This thread reminded me of this:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Voice_of_Fire

[Dillon Sculpture]

All art is garbage, and I'm a pig! :)

[Frosty]

All art is garbage, and I'm a pig! :)

Ooh ooh! All garbage is ART. I'm a fly.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Randy]

Wow! I love what's happened with this thread! All good stuff. On the art end... many years ago we had an ABANA sponsored meeting at Penland about art in forged iron since we call ourselves artist-blacksmiths. We had a panel of distinguished artist/smiths and a good crowd of smiths participating. I don't think I've ever seen so many grown men and women crying as there. Why? Because when we talk of art we talk of something that's more personal than most anything else. Something emotional. It's a part of us. And different smiths deal with it in different ways no matter their skill level. I knew one smith that became quite famous but because people were buying his work only as an investment he stopped selling his work and litterally died as a starving artist. Shame. I've seen forged nails that were art to me just due to their proportions. Something about them were just beautiful. The one term that I can't stand is "non functional artwork". There is no such thing. It brings emotion in us. So I try to keep an eye open and see what attracts me to it. If I like it it is art to me. Personally I enjoy creating pieces that make people smile. Thanks for all of your input and I look forward to reading more!

[Dillon Sculpture]

I found Arne Quinze through his piece "Making of Rock Strangers" but here is one that will really hurt your sensibilities George, if you can sit through it.

[george m.]

Sask Mark's link to the Wikipedia article on the purchase of the Voice of Fire painting illustrates the idea of "It must be Art because it was created by an artist."

I still think that beauty is important to art. "Beauty" is, of course, in the eye of the beholder to use another cliche. Randy's well proportioned nail as an example.

Subjectively,
George M.

[iron woodrow]

my late best friend, may he rest in peace, was a tortured artist (but the black dog took its course with him) made art, only for himself.
he didnt make art to shock or inspire, he just made art to expel his demons. it worked for a while, but 29 years was his limit apparently :(

his art was beautiful, and those who knew him were blown away by its complexity and skill, and complete uniqueness and innovation of style, and it pushed the boundaries of perception and space.

but he burned it all when he decided to take matters (and life) into his own hands.

it was for him.

i dont know if he was an artist....... ;)
there is no back catalogue, only a few people saw his work, but to me there is no doubt, it was art.

this thread raises the issues that he was confronted with in his mind- the art world, and the monopoly man attitude to profit, art by numbers as it were..... :)

[Jacques]

I don't like commenting on art, but I've always liked this cartoon.

[John McPherson]

I always liked the opening of Mel Brooks' "History of the World Part 1", where the unveiling of the works of the first cave artist brought forth the first art critic. :rolleyes:

I find the work of 'savages' in museums to be much more compelling and honest than so-called 'modern art'.

I am a technician by nature and training, and consequently struggle with art. I call myself a knuckle dragging Neanderthal, but am an adequate tool user. In my discussions with the head of the school's Graphic Design program, I have used the line that "Even cave men had art."

[Timothy Miller]

After many years of thought and $30,000 on art school I have come to the conclusion. There are two kinds of art, art I don't like and art I like. If you call your self an artist you are one and if you make art you are an artist. Everything else is semantics. You can stink but its still art. A minimalist painting may offend one and a finely engraved gun may offend another they are both art. I love it all. If I have a reaction to it, it is a good thing nothing is worse than something that bland and uninspired. Even if the art work feels like its tring to swindle you I enjoy because It made me feel something.

[jawno]

I guess that's why myself and seemingly many others don't "get it". That voice of fire painting does absolutely nothing for me. I don't consider it art at all. I am befuddled by why anyone would dish out that much money for something like that. Where is the craft in it? Where is the skill?

[Timothy Miller]

I guess that's why myself and seemingly many others don't "get it". That voice of fire painting does absolutely nothing for me. I don't consider it art at all. I am befuddled by why anyone would dish out that much money for something like that. Where is the craft in it? Where is the skill?

The craft and skill are mostly in the thinking that went into it. Painters had ever done that kind of work before. To us it now seems silly but at the time it was highly innovative work. Much painting of the mid-20th century was based on ideas about painting so If you don't have a grasp on the history of painting you "won’t get it" for better or worse it requires a certain amount of education to understand a lot of fine art. Previously painting had been about representing a person or a story but as photography came into use and most people learned how to read that slowly went out the window. It happened in small steps starting with people like the Impressionists until we wound up with plain white canvases. All that being said some stuff is just out there but that can be the fun of it. The value of some of these paintings is more based on their importance in the eyes of collectors and art critics and not on their classical ascetics. Remember a child can make a beautiful drawing and they have very low skills or technical ability. To be truthfull the painting in question leaves me a bit cold.

[JNewman]

We discussed that painting in a drawing class my wife and I took years ago. The instructor who was a MFA who was a staffer at a local community art center. He gave us the same argument you gave Tim but with a bunch of BS, he and one of the other students mentioned how the scale of the work was important and how the size contributed to it's impact. A year or two later we were in Ottawa and went through the national gallery. It and one or two other pieces are in a Huge hall. I was not impressed with the work. I was much more impressed with the architecture of the room than the painting.

Just off this huge room was a small room that almost had the feeling of a closet in relation to the huge hall. Inside this room were dozens of small paintings and sketches by the Group of seven and Tom Thompson. It blew me away that all this incredible work was stuffed in this little room and The Voice of Fire gets the huge room.

[dbrandow]

...it requires a certain amount of education to understand a lot of fine art....

There is, however, a very fine line between art that you need a great deal of understanding to appreciate (think how square corners and forge welds and diagonal pass-throughs typically only impress other blacksmiths) and art that is just the emperor's invisible clothes, with a bunch of greatly pretentious people who pretend to 'get it'. The Voice of Fire is, in my opinion, very clearly in the latter category.

[george m.]

Dear All,

As another Neanderthal/Philistine I have to disagree with the idea that stimulating a reaction of any sort is the definition of Art. That, IMO, is just a cop out because it is so broad that practically anything falls into that group. A person would have to work harder to create something that only elicited a "meh" from most people. Yes, there is a very broad range of reactions amongst people to anything but I think the artist has to have a goal or intent and the art is only successful if a majority of the people viewing the object or hearing the sound have the reaction the artist intended has he or she successfully created "Art."

Regarding Tim's suggestion that you have to have considerable background to "get" mid-20th century painting: That reduces "Art" to an in joke or jargon amongst a very small group and eliminates any chance that the work will have anything more than a very narrow audience. There is a legal phrase, "term of art" (no pun intended) which means that a word or phrase has a very specific and narrow meaning, often different from the general or common meaning, and often used by a specialized group. The same word will have different meanings to a, say, engineer or a doctor. In this case it appears that "Art" has become merely a "term of art."

Broadly,
George M.

"So short the life, so long to learn the craft."

[Dillon Sculpture]

What other disciplines would you consider conceptual art? Theoretical math, jazz, contemporary dance, artscience, poetry, on and on and on? It's a matter of choice what inspires, entertains or leaves you hopelessly depressed... Just because you don't understand the intent doesn't mean it worthless. Even if you don't "get it" you still have been exposed and there is not much you can do but carry on. To think "ART" is a sham just waiting for the next sucker shows a closed mind and a hugh intolerance towards all that is wonderful and tragic in life.

[Timothy Miller]

The Neanderthals made some amazing abstract art by the way. The world of fine painting is more like a strange religion than something that requires logic and reason. It has it tenants of faith, stores and myths. Its kind of like running across a tribe in the jungle that worships a shiny can that was given to them by the sky god. The whole thing makes total sense to them and has deep meaning but to you its ridiculous. If a member of that tribe came to our city or town they would think we worshiped some silly things too. Another analogy is sports if you don't understand the rules of the game the whole thing seems pretty pointless. Why are those people so exiced because that guy ran??? Once the work has left the artist's studio they have no control over how the piece of art is viewed or understood. It may have been intended one way but understood quite differently by the viewer yet still be successful. Just because you make art that few people enjoy does not remove the fact that that person is an artist.

[Kevin W]

There is an art phrase, "fallacy of intent" which means that a work of art may have a very specific and narrow intended meaning, yet that work likely will have differient meanings to differient people.

People cant help being human, probably best to just celebrate that, but no matter how hard I try....sometimes ...

[rthibeau]

Frosty, search the internet....you can find all the Firesign Theatre albums (likely on CD's now). In the context of the original album, "I think we're ALL Bozos on this bus" referred to the fact that all the passengers on that particular bus WERE Bozos (squeeze yer nose and go honk!) meaning they were all of the same ilk. In that regard, all of us on IFI are all of the same ilk in using hot steel to satisfy some aspect of our lives. Art?? I know Art, I have met Art, he lives in Wisconsin. He will understand. -_-

[kevan]

I know one thing for sure. Someone needs to teach me the "art" of being nice to people. When it comes to being polite, I am an impressionist

Stuart.....that was excellent, you are ARTiculate. LOL

[jawno]

You're right, I don't have much of an arts education. I have some college but most of my time I was studying cutting or welding of metals and earning a living at it. I was always more the neanderthal than the beatnik so my appreciation for fine art has been lacking. It wasn't until later in life that my appreciation of art grew. And it was mostly by seeing something that I couldn't do. Something that set me to wondering how the heck did they do that? I suppose the reason I don't appreciate the "voice of fire" is precisely because I can't see all the thought that went into it. I can't see the work. The art that really lights my fire is the stuff I can't do. I've tried fusing glass to metal but haven't had much luck. Everyone says you need to do it in an oven but I've seen some work done that was too big to have been done in an oven. That's the kind of stuff I just have to sit back and go "That's really amazing". Or something that's assembled with no visible fasteners kind of like those gates that Rory May of the dragonsforge made. Of course some things are just stupendous due to their immense size like the "aileron" sculpture. But in all those I can see the work involved. In "voice of fire" I can't, so I don't have a proper appreciation of it. I think I could duplicate it but convincing someone to pay me for it? doubtful. I mean someone must have looked at the "voice of fire" and said "Yes, thats exactly what we were after". then again just because someone buys it doesn't make it art.
I went through a gallery just last weekend with some astounding art. Way beyond anything I could produce. at least in a reasonable amount of time. perhaps thats what art is, something at the next level. Higher quality than the average craftsman can do. I like to think I'm an artist or at least an aspiring one but perhaps I'm just a craftsman. Perhaps art is something which is an example of the state of the craft. Something other artisans can only aspire to.

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

I believe "Art" is one of the most bastardized, misinterpreted, and misused words to ever grace our attention and leave our lips. It's this way because we each have our own view as to whether it; defines or complicates, intends to shock an audience or personal pursuit, etc. etc.... I feel it's a whole lot of word juggling jargon that dances around the fire, telling each other how it burns, melts, chars, cracks, sparks, how it's better than other fires... In all reality, it's the fire itself that is the "Art"; the process, not the translation.

I've stumbled upon blacksmithing as an escape from society. After getting lost on the way to college, and serving two tours in OEF-P, I've lost my taste for life's social circles (at least in the flesh). I find accomplishing tasks, creative forms, chores, and just work in general as the only therapeutic escape. The action of doing is my art. I'm able to manipulate myself and my tangible world, while manipulating and impacting all other things in life remain an exercise in futility.

These are my dancing words, again someone with a different perspective sharing their reality to a broad audience of onlookers.

[Frosty]

Actually, in this case we're NOT a broad audience of onlookers, we're the Bozos on the bus.

Frankly though I don't see anything in your post to disagree with except as it applies to myself. I certainly agree that work or accomplishing useful tasks is very self affirming, it's what sets our worth to other humans and ourselves. Life is the journey, not a destination.

Fare well.

Frosty the Lucky.