george m. Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Dear All, Another thought about blacksmithing which I find compelling is the tradition of the craft. A Celtic smith of 500 BC and I could not understand a word of the other's language but we could work in the other's shop. (He would have to learn how a crank blower works and how to use a coal/coke fire and I would have to learn how to use his bellows and to manipulate a charcoal fire.) Every now and again, particularly when things are going well, I feel the shades of all the smiths before me looking over my shoulder. I also feel a responsibility to them and the craft to do things well. It's a bit like the story of the medieval sculptor who was carving the back of the statutes of saints which would never be seen in their places high in the cathederal. He was asked why he was spending so much time and effort on something which would never be seen. He replied that "If I didn't I would know and God would know." I really like being able to put old tools back into use. It seems to me that an object can have a purpose as much as a person. A tool is meant to be used. It breaks my heart to go into a restaurant and see old tools just hung on the wall as decor. Somehow, a tool seems "happier" when it is being used for the purpose for which it was made. I know this sounds kind of touchy-feely coming from someone who just posted a pretty pragmatic world view and is suspicious of "art" but it just goes to show that any one person can be somewhat internally contradictory. George M. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 george - i understand where your coming from, and there are certainly many examples of art AND craft that i find pretty discouraging - from the spagetti blacksmith work to the mind numbingly irrelevent piece of conceptual sculpture. these oppinions are subjective though arent they, at the end of the day, and an artists job is not simply to please his or her audience. that would be a pretty shallow path too. im not going to go on and on about this - the original thread was about the mellowness of hammering metal and the zen effect of finding our groove! :) but i do think its worth saying that for hundreds of years now, since artists learned how to be a mirror to life or how they saw life, the job and the aim of the artist was to challenge the viewer and present views of life unseen before., artists have always used the power of the shocking to get their point across- sometimes this is very powerful. it is just like any other job, no more or less sophisticated, but it always produces a love hate response! i only defend it because i love it. ! :) not all art, but the making of art. and as for artist blacksmiths getting paid more than craft blacksmiths, i dont know, it may be in vogue Right Now, but that does not mean the artist blacksmiths are necassarily better, it is simple fashion, and is certainly no worse than nurses getting paid less than advertising execs ! :) its just how life is i guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 ps george it breaks my heart too to see the tools on the wall.. and this could well be a subject i would be interested in making "ART" about :) i like what you said about the internal contradictions - i agree, and surely this is what makes us more human? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 ps george it breaks my heart too to see the tools on the wall.. and this could well be a subject i would be interested in making "ART" about :) i like what you said about the internal contradictions - i agree, and surely this is what makes us more human? but are not the tools themselves art?! i completely agree, but when you consider, those restaurants and pubs will go out of business eventually, and the tools will once more come into the hands of others (possibly smiths) then the existential dillema comes full circle...... or they might end up in the dusty hands of "some collector" who doesnt use them...... my tools will out live me, who knows to whom they belong..... i just look after them for now. and the concept of art is in the eye of the beholder (or auction house) i cant stand andy warhol....... but thats just me :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 i am a bozo in a bongo van..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawno Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Bozo's on bikes. I'd much rather see tools on the wall being preserved for posterity than crushed for the scrap value. i've seen way to many useful items destroyed for the money they could bring in. As far as art, I dunno. After the original artist (god) there is only the copyist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Bozo's on bikes. As far as art, I dunno. After the original artist (god) there is only the copyist. WOW! So you don't credit that God has created artists? Those "made in his image" are but copyists? Surely you can summon more faith than that!!! I am unashamed to copy elements and techniques that I find/learn everywhere... from other artists, nature, industry, etcetera... but I always tweak and arrange the work in ways that are uniquely my own... I can never even follow a recipe in the kitchen without "adapting" it. Surely 'twould be harsh judgement that labels me "only the copyist"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iron woodrow Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 ah the conversation has turned, inevitably, from blacksmithing philosophy, to religious ideaology...... what a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 yes woody your right - on the wall of the pub is better than nothing (scrap) - they are hopefully waiting for a new useful home sometime in the future :) the tools are DEFINATELY art themselves!!! which is why this stuff is so closely linked and interwoven - there aint no separating it Bozo's!! :) and as for the art thing, its meant to be subjective innit ? :) how boring would it be if we all liked the same thing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george m. Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Dear Beth, This discussion probably deserves a separate thread and if you or anyone else responds to this post I suggest that a new thread be started, maybe under general blacksmithing. You have exactly stated the reasons I am suspicious of "Art." It is pretentious and demonstrates a significant amount of hubris for artists to think that they are a mirror of life and their goal is to "challenge" anyone else's perceptions and experiences or that they have any unique or special insights on life and the world. No one authorized them to perform that role and they are not particularly well prepared for it. Artists do not have a carte blanche to challenge my or anyone else's world view and they do not have any special knowledge or insight different from anyone else's. It has unfortunately been accepted artistic wisdom in the post-modern era that good art "challenges" the viewer and if the viewer is shocked that is all to the good. There is little encouragement to inspire, amuse, intertain, elevate, or otherwise have a positive impact on the viewer. "Beauty" is to be eschewed rather than pursued. It has been my experience that artist, as a whole, can be just as sheltered, insular, and self-satisfied as any other group of people. My experience in the world has been, for good or ill, pretty varied and I have exprienced things which would shock most artists out of their smug, artsy world. 40+ years ago I was an Infantry Platoon Leader in Viet Nam and some of those experiences I wouldn't care to share with an artist or anyone else. Combat is something that no one should have to see. That said, I would not want to share those experiences with someone just to challenge or shock them. If I don't have that right why should any artist have it? Rather, in my opinion, the goal of an artist whether a painter, sculptor, musician, poet, author, or blacksmith should be to leave a positive memory or impression on a viewer or listener. The person encountering the piece of art should leave enspired, uplifted, entertained, smiling, educated, or thoughtful and wanting to repeat the experience. If they are only challenged or shocked the artist has, in my opinion, failed and only accomplished a pretty epic fail. Craftily, George M. "So short the life, so long to learn the craft." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george m. Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 PS I seem to think of something else after I have hit "post." "After the first Artist, only the copyist." is a quote from a young man by the name of Renny Russell who wrote, with his brother Terry, a book titled "On the Loose" which was published by the Sierra Club in 1971. A very good and beautifully done work which approaches the idea of wilderness and its impact on people. I highly recommend it. GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 george - nobody said an artist HAS to shock, i just think to be shocked is sometimes useful and not to be feared. (what is "shocked" anyway - if there are moral overtones, this is about something entirely different) you dont need to look at it if you dont like it, plenty of artists work is about beauty and that stuff, you can look at and enjoy that. and what you find shocking i or someone else might not. also, nobody said anything about rights, least of all me., and i find your language of "rights" and "authority" completely bizar... i am sad to say as well, that i am shocked at your insulting and patronising attitude towards a lot of people who use this site who are happy and fulfilled as artists. randy i totally apologise for the thread that started off so mellow getting so off topic (in not a nice way) and for any part i played in that! love and peace IFI - live and let live :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I found smithing in a round about way through another art form, bronze casting. I found that while waiting for the metal to melt that my skimming rod became very plastic when it was at an incandescent white heat. One thing lead to another and soon I had an anvil and was pounding iron while waiting for my forty pounds of bronze to melt. Soon I was just using my melting furnace to heat iron and next thing I knew I was making iron sculpture instead of bronze. It was so much more immediate and the plasticity of hot steel so much more satisfying than the long process of making a bronze, first the wax, then the mould, then the second wax, then the spruing, investing, burnout, chasing and finally patina, a long process. Now with the steel it was here and now, and it was a organic and flowing or sharp and geometric as I wanted it. The only downside for me was it was hard to impress my fingerprint into the hot steel, hurt like crazy and didn't really take. My wife used to do macrame when we were first married but after we had children she quit, no time what with her day job and the runts. It was hard for me to do art with them as they found the tools useful to try to kill each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george m. Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Dear Beth, Particularly as a newcomer to this forum I have not intended to be offensive, patronizing, or hostile. If I have come across as such I humbly and publically apologize and ask for pardon. As heretical as it may be I have tried to express my frustration with and my personal suspicion of what is the 21st century conception and the accepted wisdom which of what is "art" and the role and function of any artist. Part of this arises from the relegation of blacksmithing, woodwork, and other manual skills as "mere craft" and the opinion by some that it is somehow inferior to "real art." Other posts on this site (not this thread) have complained of problems blacksmiths have had with juried art shows. I suppose that at the end of the day "art" is much like "taste" and is completely subjective to any individual. Also, being a blacksmith is a "good thing" and offers a unique outlet for creative impulses. I wouldn't have been doing it for the last 34 years if I didn't find some pleasure in it. Apologetically, George M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Oh this thread is getting good. Folks are expressing their feelings and some are taking them personally. Personal investment in another's opinion is something very precious, we must be very selective in where we invest ourselves or bad things can happen. For instance the "artist's" world's opinion of the value of craft vs. art. The sneer you can see, hear, feel in an artist's voice, text, etc. when they say something like, Oh that's only craft belies their insecurity. A person invests a lot of themselves in learning a craft, be it painting, throwing pottery or painting themselves blue and behaving madly. (I really like the Blue Man Group but that's just me) When you invest much you tend to get defensive about it. This leads to emotional investment which can lead to good or bad but rarely indifference. The secret they don't tell you in an art class is Art is in the eye of the beholder, not the maker. To touch the beholder is the goal of the artist and if they are lacking then they have to resort to shock. I'm not saying art shouldn't be shocking or is poor if it is, I'm just saying some only know how to get attention with shock. It's like kids or dogs, horses and well, all the more intelligent critters, ANY attention is better than NO attention. So if a person can't get recognition (attention) be achievement they can with shock, disgust, revolting, etc. Oh say, xxxxx in a jar of urine. I think that fits in the no value so offensive is the route to attention. One of my favorite responses to the artspeak crowd is a phrase generator I've lost track of online, the "artspeak generator" enter any phrase and it generates a nonsensical artspeaky phrase for you. It was just lovely in the right circumstances. So, I agree in many ways with you George but there are of course some differences. I don't dislike art, I dislike the artspeak crowd. I THINK we are on the same page here but . . . Folk who look down on useful items are welcome to make something with a couple rocks and a campfire. Then I may care what they think. That's my defense, I have what I call a healthy don't give a "xxxx" attitude. (Okay Glenn?<grin>) I'm as selective about who's opinion I let touch me as I can be. I have good armor if I need it and will lay on more if I need it. This doesn't mean just anybody, I've been touched soul deep by complete strangers who didn't like what I'd made. They were sincere, they looked over and touched the piece and explained as best they could what they didn't like. I cherish these folk, I crave their attention. What I won't do though is try to cheat it out of them. That is to crap on myself. The artists finishing the backs of statues and plain old craftsmen grinding off burrs and sharp corners on steel that's going to be welded to the inside of a machine never to be seen again aren't doing it for any one but themselves. Maybe God but I'm not so full of myself I think God's paying that that kind of attention to what I do. Of course wrong seems to be a life long trend with me but I think god'll understand my position on the subject. S/he has a sense of humor, just look around. Anyway George, I strongly doubt you've offended anyone. If you have they need to lighten up, maybe go beat some poor innocent iron/steel into something that makes them feel better. Ask two smiths a question and you'll get many answers. Disagreeing is part of the art and so long as it doesn't turn personal, no names are called, no poo slung, friends we can be. Heck, even then. We share something very precious, soul deep and satisfying beyond mere mortal's grasp and we find it in HOT plastic iron and the simplest tools on earth. We are LUCKY people, who cares what the "artist" community thinks? (Please note that is QUOTE artists, not the real deal) Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 This is a good thread and I do not find it offensive at all. It makes the brain work to make sure to understand what is being said. smith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 George M.: I love your remark about "not enough personality dysfunctions! In Eugene,Or. there is a bumper sticker that says "Just Because Nobody Understands You Doesn't Mean You're An Artist"!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I think that it is also good to note that the conceptual art which has pervaded throughout recent history, some of the forerunners, like Damien Hirst hold very highly the craft skills of artisans, and commissions them in his works. The awesome character Grayson Perry not so long ago won the esteemed Turner Prize here with his quirky ceramics. I'm not so much a fan of these artist but I can appreciate some of what they are putting across. I particularly loved the Ai Weiwei installation at the Tate modern, millions of tiny porcelaine sunflower seeds, scattered throughout the floor of the great hall, over which you would walk. The chinese artist explained that they represented the citizens of china and the people walking over them represented oppressive chinese authority. He was incarcerated by the chinese government because of his views and the messages in his art. Powerful stuff, in my opinion, and obviously viewed as powerful stuff by the chinese authorities. Much of conceptual art is poorly thought out and even more poorly executed, but that does not mean that there is not some good stuff in there. I'm happy to look, to take it in as once in a while you get something that is really incredibly clever amongst dross. I can appreciate this, even though I don't have a personality disorder! Now of course it is silly to expect that everyone will get it, or even want to get it, or that there is even anything to get at all, but I think it makes the world richer that it exists. I also do think that people can in all disciplines, whether it be fine art or blacksmithing take themselves far too seriously. I can hear fine artists twaddle on about the hidden meanings and concepts and blah blah blah, and I can hear blacksmiths twaddle on about how they made that object, smiting at the full moon, only using ore smelted on an eclipse, blah blah blah. I do like the sound of that phrase generator, Frosty, would love to find that!!! It sounds hilarious. I totally understand that Art is not for everyone but then also it is good to differentiate between conceptual art, fine art and folk art, because in the art world there is a vast difference between the practices throughout each. I believe that within blacksmithing we are a very special bunch and our work is pervasive in all those categories. My degree that I hold is titled "Bachelor of Fine Arts, Silversmithing and Metalwork" Fine Arts!! There it is labeled a fine art, not a craft. Funny old world, isn't it?? I love that we live in a society that we are free to express ourselves as we wish. I love that we can sit here and debate the finer details of what it means for each of us when we manipulate hot metal. Therein lies the beauty. The act of creating is a powerful feeling to people, powerful to do, and powerful to see, whether for us it be a simple hook or spoon, an ornate set of gates, or an abstract sculptural work. Whatever it is our work is made earnestly with our hands (and tools!!) and is satisfying as such!!! ok, well that's enough waffle from me for one day, am off out to find my zen in hot steel. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Interrupting my zen... I have just been thinking, and laughing, the 'godfather' of conceptual art, Marcel Duchamp was the first artist to exhibit a tool, a snow shovel!!! and a wire bottle rack!! (both were mass produced items) This was around 1914! It is making me laugh because it has been discussed about tools being displayed on walls!! The bottle rack was apparently thrown away by his sister thinking it was just junk, and the shovel used to shovel snow in Chicago... He is incidentally also responsible for the urinal entitled "fountain" His point was to shift the focus from the object to the interpretation of the object... and he had a wicked sense of humour! ok, back to the zen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawno Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I like the definition that art is something that inspires people. I know that is a goal of mine in everything I make. I know that what inspires me, I consider art, and it is often something as simple as a well made tool. Usually its more of a "how the heck did they do that" type of thing that really inspires me and makes me want to go out and try. That is partly what led me to blacksmithing. Realizing there was a better way to do some things. Yes, "On The Loose". One of my most favorite books. Another of my favorite quotes is "I would rather wake up in the middle of nowhere than in any city on Earth". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jawno Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Just wanted to add that I think this is the perfect location for this thread,and this discussion, and I find it to be one of the most inspiring I've read on the site since the old ships and sealing wax thread of a while ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Love the bumper sticker Eric and I'm not a bumper sticker kind of guy. Oh Coleen, no disorders? When does denial become a disorder? <grin> I do my most creative work, be it in steel, writing, designing, drawing, whatever when I'm most depressed. Doing the creative helps pull me out, not like going to a mall and just helping anyone who needs a hand. The random acts of helpfulness has indeed given me a sure fire out from the manic depressive cycles I used to suffer. It got so all I needed to do is smile at people till some kind soul would smile back and I'd feel better, soon I'd be back on track. Anywho, mental issues can indeed lead to being creative, this I know from personal experience. Frosty the Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 hehehe Frosty, i'm not crazy, ok!!!! not in the slightest!! I'm perfectly normal, me!!!!! :blink: That reminds me of a very dear friend of mine who was seeing a therapist for her 'ishooos'. I mused that I never felt I needed to see a therapist for anything, (denial??? lol) to which she replied, "you wouldn't, you have your art to work it through" which I thought was an interesting insight!!! And, that is sooo true, random acts of kindness are uplifting... pay it forward. That's part of the reason why this forum can be so good!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 "art is something that inspires people".........I don't know that this is always true or needs to be. Sometimes it is just there to fill a blank wall or add a focal point to a garden and nothing more than that. I sure don't think my art inspired anyone, I sure ain't no Michelangelo or Michael Moore, I use art as a way to get some of the objects that clutter my mind out of it. Is doodling a high art form, low art form or even art at all? Perhaps that all I'm doing, making big doodles in steel. They don't need to inspire anyone at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george m. Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Dear All, I think that Colleen in the UK may have hit on a point which is part of the basis for my cautiousness about "art." That is the distinction made between "fine art" and everything else. We all know the value of our art (in the sense of a particular calling) and craft but a fair number of folk look at it as "mere craft" because it isn't classic "fine art." Something that smithing has given me is an appreciation for skill. When I look at something and am able to percieve that it took considerable skill to produce it I am more appreciative and receptive to it. Something which is a technical POS usually gets a pass from me. This sort of ties in to the criticism, which has been around since the beginning of "modern" art a century ago, that non-representational art is a technical cop out. That is, if you don't have the skill to paint, sculpt, forge, knit, etc. a tree you do something free form and call it your impression or interpretation of a tree. I think that there may be some truth in this but I have seen a lot of non-representaional pieces which required a huge amount of skill to complete. I'm always a bit disappointed when I see something which someone has put a huge amount of time and skill into and it just doesn't work on any level. Too much stuff out there which is presented as art or craft is a sad waste of paint, marble, iron, wool, etc.. My wife's (the spinner and weaver) reaction to a lot of fiber "art" is that all it is is a waste of good fiber and is something which would have earned a medieval apprentice a beating from the master for wasting material. That said, she also says that there is no such thing as bad spinning, only novelty yarn. Craftily, George M. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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