Small Charcoal forge - indoors

[MrCairney]

Gents, I will not be bringing the bucket indoors.

[Rich Hale]

"Aside from this, the logistics involved will probably mean I will leave the bucket outdoors and look into constructing a mini gas forge. I know a couple of smiths with this set up who, with the correct precautions, operate and use it safely on a daily basis."

I did not check your profile for your age. but if you are a younger person I would like you to review all of this threaqd with your parents. That being said I have done all I can do. Pleasse reread everything in my piece and those of others. A gasser is NOT A SAFE ALTERNATIVE, There is not one!

[Steve Sells]

Ignoring the advise of experienced smiths, and taking posts from people that say its ok, is typical of a child that is only looking for some one to tell them what they want to hear, rather than gather information. charcoal or gas is not safe.

I do not care if you feel insulted. Feeling means your still alive, the dead do not feel. If you thought it was safe why post to ask, and why light it out side then bring it in? IFI has members from all over the world. not just the USA, there are many inside forges but none are in a basement where gasses collect, as that is just stupid.

EMT, trained with FWFD
red cross volunteer, that has seen too many people die from ignoring safety
20 year black smith

[MrCairney]

Please understand I was not ignoring any of you here. Why some people feel it safe to work on gas indoors (as I said before I know some that do) isn't something for this thread. HOWEVER: as far as what I will be doing (which is what this thread is about): be rest assured that I will stay outdoors, regardless. I mean that.

[Glenn]

Thank You for the update.

Remember, we are trying to keep you safe.

[MrCairney]

Absolutely, what more can I want?

Thanks again all.

[Rich Hale]

Thank you so much. Now when you get a set up outdoors. Remembr this is The Place for information on the work you will be doing in the future. I for one will go out of my way if there is any way I can help you,

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Aside from this, the logistics involved will probably mean I will leave the bucket outdoors and look into constructing a mini gas forge. I know a couple of smiths with this set up who, with the correct precautions, operate and use it safely on a daily basis. Thanks to all for the insight.

Its important to remember with gas forges that they put out even more CO and CO2 than a coal or charcoal forge. My shed is open on two sides at the roof line and has two ridge vents. And yet, I still leave the door open when I use my gas forge. I appreciate and applaud you for revising your plans.

If the issue is weather related, I have some experience forging in an extreme climate. Tempratures here regularly get to -40 F. The last few days we have had mild weather, its all relative of course, in the high teens and 20s F. With a good wood stove and a coal forge in an 8 x 10 shop with two smiths working in it, it has been pleasantly warm. The shop is put together with partical board and 2x4s, has a tent roof and a split carpet door. We are using a 25 lb anvil and a side blast forge made from a metal desk drawer. But the flu has adequate draw and the room stays clear of smoke. Blacksmithing is an art and a craft. There is science involved and intuition. You don't however need an elaborate set up to work. You don't have to have a large anvil, vise, or fancy forge. You need a way to heat metal, something to hit the metal on and something to hit the metal with. Rocks have been used for all of these things successfully. Think outside the box.

[MrCairney]

Thanks Rich and Bryan. I'm a big believer in less is more, which is why the bucket forge interests me so much. My hammer is actually a hot cut chisel, my vice is a big old spanner wrench bolted to a stump and my anvil is a sledgehead set in the same stump.

The reason I would have liked to have a forge in the same place as the rest of the set-up was for efficiency I suppose. The irony being the bucket is probably as portable as they come, and all the above can be carried up from the cellar with no problem at all.

What WAS I thinking? Is this what happens when you think out loud?

The rest of the tools will stay in the cellar, as profiling, bevelling and handling are all jobs quite suited for there.

[pkrankow]

If you already work outdoors in fair weather, is it safe to assume you are on your neighbor's good side if there are any? The concern seems to be weather conditions over anything else.

Where on the planet are you? IFI is represented by members world wide, and available resources vary from location to location. You may be a short drive from a smithing organization that is more than happy to let you use their equipment at their facility.

It sounds like a carport type of structure, or a "quick-tent" to keep the rain (and snow) off you, and have a windbreak wall for less than wonderful days.

I have personally been drifted in while working outside on my driveway. I did not notice until I took a break, and there was no path to the house, I had to shovel the GARAGE to close the door, and the only clear spot was where I was standing. I had to shovel to find my tool box too.

Phil

[Fe-Wood]

Sometime reality is scary. In no way am I saying not to do it. Just be sure you understand what it is you are doing so you can do it safely. I thought my situation was safe while I was running my generator. Big space, lots or air movement etc. It was the stars I was seeing that made me realize I was in way over my head. Had the door not been right next to my Lathe, I might not be here to share my experience with you....

It wasn't until I stood outside breathing fresh air that I realized what was going on!

Opps- Didin't read all the posts. You've made a wise choice MrCairney....

[Charles R. Stevens]

On the one hand I agree that this is dangerous to you and your house mates. And I would not recommend using a forge that can be easily upset. I must play the devils advocate.
Forges have ben successfully operated indoors since the Romans, I've read accounts of basement forges in wagon shops, and second story shops. To day their are fire places in homes as well as charcoal grills and brick ovens in restaurants.
If a proper hood and flue are installed over a proper hearth it could be done (with additional shop ventilation) This is not to say it should be done, or that a flue and hearth are the only concerns, as fire safety also comes in to play.
If a prau

[JimsShip]

I was going to ask the same thing, regarding indoor shops. (For the record, I completely agree with the advise and warnings about using your cellar in the house as being dangerous)
My first blacksmith experiences were in an old recreated blacksmiths shop, that had only the front door open for fresh air and a large vented hood with chimney.
If I were to build a shop of my own, or say remodel the detached garage, how big a space would you all think would be a safe estimate, assuming of course there would be a strong vented hood drawing out the smoke?
How many of you have indoor shops?

[ThomasPowers]

"Its important to remember with gas forges that they put out even more CO and CO2 than a coal or charcoal forge"

A bit broad of a statement. I have seen a cigarette lighter used as a gas forge to heat sewing pins to forging temps. I somehow doubt this puts out more CO and CO2 than a charcoal forge burning 10 pounds an hour...But the basic idea is sound---killing yourself and or family members is a bad idea. I have offered the parting toast at Quad-State to one smith who was my friend, Paw Paw Wilson. It is not my wish that *anyone* has to do that for one of their friends.

When I lived in Columbus OH, in the old section of town in a 100 year old house; I rigged up a one soft firebrick forge run off a simple plumbers propane torch so I could forge nails for a woodworking project in mid winter. Of course the basement was drafty with coal door, bad windows and a door to the outside as well as the two furnaces with powered exhaust and the vented gas hot water heater.

This small forge worked so well I used it to forge fine silver ingot into penannular brooches, small knives, etc and never had any problems with CO and I am aware of the symptoms as I have been exposed at other shops.

If I had to put in a reasonable sized gas forge into that basement I would totally shroud it with a positive air system with both intake from the outside and exhaust to the outside. Yes a fuss and a pain but one ER visit can blow away *any* savings one might make by taking shortcuts!

My current shop in NM has 10' walls, 14' peak, open gables and the ridgeline is open for 30 feet by about 1' wide Drafty is GOOD!

[MrCairney]

We know that I won't be running one (as I promised), but the gas forge in question was running on propane, the forge itself probably 6"x6"x10" and running for less than 30mins.

Just interested on the kind of CO/CO2 output would be achieved there. Purely out of curiosity you understand.

[Marksnagel]

I have forged outside under the old oak (sorry no elm) tree for two years in the heat of summer and the cold of winter. Good draft! Now I am building a 15X15 smithy next to the existing forge area. Not wanting to freeze in the winter or get sunbaked in the summer it will have a roof and three sides. Two of the sides will swing upwards to allow a breeze in the summer. There will be a hood and a chimney to further help with the removal of "bad air". Good luck with your adventures. Keep us posted with your progress.




Mark <><

[Marksnagel]

There are old smiths, and there are bold smiths, but there are few old, bold smiths.

Great answer Grant. I use that at the Fire Dept and use heros in the place of smiths. There is a lot of thuth in that saying.

[firefarm39]

Read the wikipedia article on CO poisoning. Note that the level at which ACUTE poisoning starts is as low as 35 parts per million (ppm). Chronic poisoning can start at a much lower level. Also note that a properly functioning gas stove burner generates about 15 ppm CO. So what if your propane forge is burning a little rich (incomplete combustion)? Not hard to imagine reaching levels well into the acute poisoning range. Remember too that CO poisoning is cumulative, at least in the short term. The CO binds with hemoglobin so well that it stays stable for a long period. Repeat exposure accumulates CO in the blood.
Like some of the other responders, I am a firefighter with 18 years of experience. Most of us who have done firefighting for a while have seen the results of CO poisoning. I have helped remove bodies. Please,
don't take a chance!!!

[Ten Hammers]

Having survived CO poisoning 25 years ago I have a few thoughts. A furnace almost killed me. To you folks in warmer climes this is the big gig that heats the home in cold weather. Any of the following :

A; Improper flu to remove the bad stuff Rich talked about

B; Bad or dirty burner ( improper combustion )

C; Lack of 02 input to the combustion

will result in bad things in the environment around the unit ( be it furnace, small heater, gas forge ). The signs and symptoms of CO poisoning can be deceiving. No medical facility diagnosed me with it. No one even SUSPECTED it. I was tested extensively in several different facilities. My biggest thing was getting dizzy while on a ladder. BY the way, no one else in the family had signs or symptoms. We moved. The symptoms went away eventually. I read an article in Mechanix Illustrated about bad furnaces. The article cleared up a few questions i had been living with for a couple years. I knew who was living in the offending house that almost killed me (actually the new Highway Patrolman in town ). I went to the house and spoke with him directly. His wife had been suffering with symptoms and had been to Mayo Clinic about them. Same furnace. She survives today thankfully.

Say what you will. There is a reason that a bag of briquettes or lump charcoal has a warning on it. Do not use this inside to cook. I have a solid fuel forge in the shop and a couple of gassers. I have a hood on the forge but not on the gassers. I have a positive pressure fan(s) for use when the plasma is being used as well as to clear the bad air. You can see particulates for the most part. Carbon Monoxide is odorless, colorless and tasteless, terminal, progressive and fatal if left unchecked. Some people are much more susceptible than others to various pathogens. Yes there were indoor forges in history.

YES I have a plug in CO detector above and behind the forge and gassers and YES it barks sometimes when I fire the gasser(s) until I get the (blown) mixture correct after lighting. It is above the back door of the solid fuel forge (on the ceiling joist). Smoke will from time to time go through the door. No alarm for CO as of yet from that. The hood does it's job to remove smoke for the most part. This is a drafty old garage that has been my shop for I guess 22 years here at this home.

You showed your intelligence by asking questions. Following is a bit of a personal rant so please forgive me.

The world is full of people trying to protect me from myself. I once welded in an establishment that did not allow smoking.while working inside the building. Fab shop. Welding through cutting fluid among other things. I once asked the HR woman the reason for no smoking. She replied that it was an insurance regulation. I asked if she personally or anyone connected to the insurance had read the MSDS on a 44 lb spool of ER70-S6 welding wire. She replied no. I suggested she (and they) read it. We had no hoods for smoke removal and the place (inside) always looked like a , well, welding shop. Full of smoke. Deere and Company, Vermeer and others today do not allow smoking in their welding areas. Say what you may about smoking. Doesn't bother me in the least. My choice.

This thread is ( was ) about CO inside a building and the dangers. If you have an engineer to hold responsible for your health (someone to sue for damages if you die) so be it. Please err on the side of caution and listen to what Rich said (among others). Glad to see that the advice given is being taken and this was not meant to be a scolding from an old guy to the younger ones. Have fun. Learn stuff. ask questions. there is a reason some of us have arms that look like we have raindrop flesh colored tatoos ( and our legs and feet too). Standing in the fire that we make or our welding partner makes or the machine (bot) makes is all part of the deal. Protect yourself.

[MrCairney]

I loved that quote from Grant too

Great post Ten Hammers, old guys only scold with a good reason

I realise I've done that thing people do on forums where they pop in and ask a question without even introducing themselves.

Hi I'm Steve from the North of England, I'm 34 (just to clear that bit up!) and I'm looking forward to the christmas break from work so I can get stuck in and spend some quality time making woodworking knives. I've got an interest in the whole process, right up to the finishing leatherwork. I'm big on the scandinavian style of utility blade.

I must say I feel quite embarrassed that some of you might think I'm a bit soft in the head for asking the original question (it's in my nature to question everything), but hopefully I'll be able to make up for that eventually.

[GRiley904]

it's all about ventilation where there is fire there is carbon dioxide you gotta get it out of there maybe build a small chimney type deal on it, with a fan directing it outside, should do the trick

Mod addition: IF you want to kill yourself and your family go ahead. this is a very BAD IDEA

Now I know this post was very poorly worded i should have said monoxide and i forgot to mention letting clean air in but i would like to know how suggesting proper ventilation is such a horrible idea. many people have indoor set ups and they aren't dead... due to their ventilation system. im not picking a fight by any means and im not an experienced smith by any means. but people have built fires inside their dwellings for ever in fact there was a mining operation where a fire was used to bring clean air in. Mod i believe your correction was a lil harsh but then again it's better to be safe than sorry

[Guest]

it's all about ventilation where there is fire there is carbon dioxide you gotta get it out of there maybe build a small chimney type deal on it, with a fan directing it outside, should do the trick

Mod addition: IF you want to kill yourself and your family go ahead. this is a very BAD IDEA.

Mod i believe your correction was a lil harsh but then again it's better to be safe than sorry

Death is harsh. I stand by what I said about having a forge in a pit like a cellar, and your reply seemed to minimize the very real danger that will place the family in. A small chimney is not going to "do the trick" and be enough to change the physics.

[Marksnagel]

Hi Steve from North of England! I'm glad that you are here and that you are interested in blacksmithing. As you have seen, you will get all sorts of answers and probably just as many opinions when you ask a question. Never fail to ask a question because you fear the answers you may get. Opinions are usually answers that have been formed through experience.

Again, glad to have you here and look forward to seeing you progress.

Mark <><

At 10pm eastern time tonight come to the chat room. Lots of opinions will be there. :)

[GRiley904]

i am very sorry and didnt mean to minimize the danger yes death is harsh and i see he decided to take it outside witch i do believe is the better option but i never said small ventilation is possible and i stand by that however it would take major home modification witch may not be an option pit like cellar seems the issue would be getting clean air in but not un-doable once again im sorry and i'll be the first to tell you to take the advise of an experienced smith over mine as a novice. mod you're right and we cant expect everyone to know and understand the physics

Steve im glad to see another beginner here and hope to see you bud into a great smith keep it safe and have a good one

I'm wrong
Riley

[Fe-Wood]

Welcome Steve from North of England!

Don't be shy about asking questions weather you or others thingk they are soft in the head questions. I feel the only stupid question is the one not asked. No way anyone can know everything...