Dogsoldat Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Well, the new forge works great. Tried making a carving knife for the neighbours failed in heat treat. A few big cracks across the blade. Ah well, try that one again. made a few more arrow heads, they are getting faster. and the socket is getting more consistent big plus... Then I took the a piece of 3/8x1 1/2" mild. Ground off scale and folded and fluxed. Darned if I didn't get a decent weld. I then took the mudlflap hanger spring stock that I had straightened out and heated and beated that together. took it up to 20 layers or so. Didn't get a picture of the billet, but twisted and welded it back on itself. hammered out a small knife. It's now soaking in vinegar, just on the off chance that the pattern may show up. Not expecting much as its all the same material welded together. Assuming that the mud flap spring is 5160 any hints or tricks to maybe get the pattern to show? Muriatic acid or ferric chloride would no doubt be the best bet. Will have to look into getting some. I have a 2 large seals from a buncher final drive, (double taper seal) looks to be the same material as a bearing race. Thoughts on contrast with the mudflap spring if I weld it all together. start of a straightened out spring new airtank forge faggot weld in 3/8 mild small blade out of mudflap spring Just stoked thatI have finally got a setup where I can forge weld! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Its a good feeling isn't it when it happens. Sometimes I think such a big deal is made of welding that it causes most of the problems. We know we are beginners so we can't forge weld and that stops us. If the metal is soaked to the right temperature then gently hammered in short time there is no reason welds won't work. You should be proud of the blade, it looks great, and a bit smug about the welding success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the branch Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 About the soaking in vinegar. Is it table vinegar (7% ish) or essence 35%? Found out that the essence, when warmed up/boiling is a pretty agressive and effective acid. It takes longer than the other ones ofc, but still. I've atleast gotten a pretty good pattern showing with mild steel and an 5160 steel. Well... for both beeing very light in color its not much, but still! Love boiling things, its so much more efficiant :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Where do people get the false idea that forge welding is an advanced skill? it was the apprentice job to make charcoal, and forge weld the scraps into bars usable for the smith in the daily work. Apprenticeships started about 7 years of age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Where do people get the false idea that forge welding is an advanced skill? it was the apprentice job to make charcoal, and forge weld the scraps into bars usable for the smith in the daily work. Apprenticeships started about 7 years of age. If you had a real easy time of it starting out I reckon you're the exception rather than the rule......The 7 year olds were often time beaten if they didn't catch on quick .........warm backsides make for a quick study...........mb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 So many other tasks are easier than forge welding, so that in the learning process it can be exasperating. If a person is learning to blacksmith and there is no one to teach them the proper steps then it is easier to go on to another operation. With a teacher/mentor a person can be tasked to push through the hard times. This is why it is important for a beginner to get in touch with a local blacksmithing group. I'm not saying that you can't learn by yourself through this site, other sites, videos and books but it is so much easier with a teacher. Just sayin Mark <º))>< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 If you had a real easy time of it starting out I reckon you're the exception rather than the rule......The 7 year olds were often time beaten if they didn't catch on quick .........warm backsides make for a quick study...........mb I never said it was easy to learn, I fought it a while myself. I said its a basic skill, that any real smith should know how to do. There are many basics like fire control, drawing out, punching, straighten a curve out of a bar, simple shape changes. We should learn these basic's before we attempt the more advanced things, but too many of us are in a hurry and want to take short cuts, rather than learn the foundation smithing skills. Instant gratification isn't practical or always possible in smithing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I never said it was easy to learn, I fought it a while myself. I said its a basic skill, that any real smith should know how to do. There are many basics like fire control, drawing out, punching, straighten a curve out of a bar, simple shape changes. We should learn these basic's before we attempt the more advanced things, but too many of us are in a hurry and want to take short cuts, rather than learn the foundation smithing skills. Instant gratification isn't practical or always possible in smithing. What are you saying Steve, that a full suit of damascus jousting armour isn't a good first project? Soooo many youngsters are going to be disappointed. Frosty the Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Its very easy to forge a suit and sword on the playstation though.............................. Should be just as easy in real life :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Weren't those apprentices of old, exposed to smiths knowledge and practices daily , at a level we modern can only wish for.? They were 'SOAKED' in the craft even before they were allowed to touch the bits of wrought iron to weld them together. the craftsmen of the era, with sound teaching, were making a good hand at the forge even before he was called a "Journeyman". and not every journeyman became a MASTER. I will never belittle anyones acheivements at the forge. Good on you for trying and succeding with forge welding, getting that bit down has opened many doors for you. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 If you had a real easy time of it starting out I reckon you're the exception rather than the rule......The 7 year olds were often time beaten if they didn't catch on quick .........warm backsides make for a quick study...........mb This ongoing idea of beating people when they don't perform as well as a boss would like seems pretty far fetched to me. I see this idea put forth over and over with every trade, skill, lesson, or any type of service that history has seen. By no means do I think that its never happened. Americas own short history with child labor proves that it has happened. But the idea that every little mishap or wrong step in life lead to a beating I have a hard time believing. Physical punishment will rarely improve anyone's skill or productivity, it may get the person to work quicker but will only drive the person to distrust and dislike there boss. When you hate your job your work is generally poor. And remember people in the past are just like people today, So ask yourself, If an employee of yours failed at a task would you simply beat them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 If you think that forge welding is an easy job for a 7 year old apprentice, go take a look at Mark Aspery's youtube channel. There, you will find a video of the instructor's training workshop at Vista. The task was to make box jaw tongs with welded on reins. This requires a drop tong weld. Mark makes it look easy, but he warns people that it is not. He says that you have to try 1000 forge welds before you can consider yourself a forge weldor. Note that nobody said "master the technique". That may require a few more. Then, the camera checks out the attempts of the class participants. Note that these are not "apprentices". They are instructors in training and have a lot of experience already. I talked to one of the fellows later. This video is real. It really happened. I saw a demo at the Spring Conference where the demonstrator never got the weld to take and ended up giving up. And this was not even a drop tongs weld. It turned out to be the metal: junk out of the scrap bin. Another workshop coordinator brought his own steel all out of the same lot, and this welded up just fine in the same forge. The "apprentice" may have had it easy because he was using a more known product, most likely wrought iron. Also, he was probably working at a forge constructed by a professional. A lot of folks here are using an unknown forge made by a first timer out of a brake drum, washtub or freon tank. That's not to say that these forges won't weld. It just makes things harder. Youtube is your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Maybe one problem for those of you having trouble forge welding is you are not paying attention. Many of you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I never said it was easy, but some of you have decided to insult me and continue to assume I did. If your attention to details in your approach to smithing is the same, its no wonder you have it harder. On the other hand maybe your just trolling, in that case I wont bother here anymore, I will save it for the real smiths that ask for information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 forge welding isn't the hardest part of the trade, anyone can learn basic lap or end welds in under an hour. if you pay attention..... If you can't get it in that time...... you may be beaten, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Congrats on making a good knife and a nice forge. Congrats on getting good welds too. I got my first forge weld done today. While it may not be easy it wasn't super difficult either. I followed the steps I was tought here on the site. Used a scarf and flux. Got it to heat. Used a smaller ball peen hammer, about a pound. When the steel was a high yellow and smoking, we took it out, and I tapped it together. It took instantly. We refined the weld and tested it. It held just fine. So I'm pretty proud of my accomplishment. For me its a first of many more to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 Hey Steve, I did not mean to insult you. I was just trying to find some reasons why that "apprentice" seems to have an easier time than some of us. The reasons mentioned above could explain it. We may never know, because a lot of those old master-apprentice interaction models were never committed to writing, but only stayed hidden as tribal knowledge or trade secret. We do have a small glimpse through historical fiction and interviews, such as the Foxfire book. Most of those Appalachian smiths who were interviewed for the Foxfire book avoided forge welding. Maybe it also is not paying attention, as you replied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry H Posted June 5, 2011 Share Posted June 5, 2011 "Most of those Appalachian smiths who were interviewed for the Foxfire book avoided forge welding. Maybe it also is not paying attention, as you replied." People seem to think everyone who writes a book is a master smith, not even all the smiths who were "interviewed' might have been master smiths, or even any good ! I've seen "smiths" interviewed on TV who were not even good smiths at all, does that mean their methods should be followed ?, and blindly ? I've seen the blind followers, and sometimes I read their posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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