No Need for Input Here?

[Seamus]

Hunh? Wuzzat mean?:confused:

[Glenn]

Alan Duboff has chosen to leave IForgeIron when I ask him to accept advice in the spirit it was given by someone with far more experience in blacksmithing than he had. Alan has deleted his posting and contributions to the IForgeIron site without IForgeIron permission or knowledge. Due to the removal of information from the site, he was banned.

[Seamus]

Oh...sorry I brought it up
I was reading the one thread
about hand forged hammers
and kept seeing "no need..."
and thought maybe the server
or whatever had taken a hit.
Just found out today they
had lost power in the northwest
for close to 3 days in some places

[Glenn]

You ask, and you deserved an answer. No need to apologize.

[Ted T]

Glenn, I hate to see that happen. I look to this web site for correction if I need it. I try not to be right, I try, and want to be correct. Thank you for being observent for the best good of people like me who is in the learning process, even after 50 years.
Be safe, be safe!
Ted

[Foo]

I can restore most of his posts until the last week or two.

Just comes down to if I want to give it effort, pretty busy working on things for the first of the year.

Also, as regards to an earlier post: yes, editing had been purposely turned off for a reason. Do not question the admin's again.

[Sam Salvati]

WHAT A SHAME, this should be a stern lesson to all those who need it, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.

[ThomasPowers]

Note: as the holiday season approaches a lot of folk will be stressed out and likely to make mistakes in how they interpret other peoples' posts---so everybody try to remember to cut folks some slack if you read something that riles you a bit. Just wish them "Merry Christmas" and go on with your life---remember "forging well is the best revenge"! Or was that: "be nice to people that do you wrong because that will heap coals of fire in your forgepot"---or something to that effect...

Shoot I came in sick today for out weekly 8:45 am meeting planning to go home before 10 and here it's after 5pm and I'm still at work...just blame it on the *lack* of drugs---can't take them till after I'm home and off the snowy roads...

Thomas

[Glenn]

This is the post that caused the problem.

Post #29 and Post #30 (deleted) prompted my comment and as stated the deletion of multiple (Alan DuBoff) posts deleted by Alan was the cause for his being banned.

[Frosty]

I'm sorry to see Alan leave the forum and sorrier still to see him banned. I hope the bannishment can be reconsidered after some time has passed.

I may be wrong but I think he took it harder when his mentor differed with him in another thread. I've had a similar experience with a new student who subbed to a list I'm pretty active on. He discovered the really big difference in how I run my shop and teach compared to how and what other folk do. He naturally thought I was somehow infallible and came close to flaming another smith for differing with a method I'd taught him. He was most hurt when I pulled him up short. I did it as gently as I could publicly but saved the serious explanations for private sessions. It's marvelous how watching your iron heat frees your mind for listening.

He got over it though, continued with me, turned out to be a darned fine smith in his own right and is currently in the Navy going to nuke power school.

I think Alan and Scott will talk it out and Alan will (I hope) return to us with a more open attitude.

Frosty

[Foo]

When a user is banned, there is no going back.

When Alan broke rules on several instances we let it slide; unlike those instances, he tried to remove all his postings with ill intention and intent to hurt I Forge Iron as a whole.

[Ted T]

Very well put!

[kogatana]

Ok, this answers my questions asked in "a new meaning to hand forge hammers".

Sad things happening (deleting all posts, the ban, the loss of info, many threads appearing choped...).

[Strine]

Disclaimer
I write in a willy-nilly fashion, using all manner of bad language and inappropriate phrasiology. After all my thoughts are on the screen I refine and rehash the text so it's presentable on this site. If in the event I press the wrong button below i.e. submit or preview, in a moment of lowered concentration I apologise but take no resposibility. If there is no edit facility you have to take it as it comes.


Obviously I can not see what all the fuss was over Alan since Alans posts are gone. Suffice to say there appears to have been quite a bit of fuss. But I'm seeing things slightly differently, maybe as a result of too many attempts at criptic crosswords. Two things are troubling me

Glenn: Alan has deleted his posting and contributions to the IForgeIron site without IForgeIron permission or knowledge

Shurely it is Alans rite to deleet his postings and contributions when and when he wishes and for wotever reeson. To that end I am asking how much of our posting are ours or, once they are posted, do they become yours (admin's) and we have no rights to our once, own intellectual property. An explaination would be much appreciated.

Andrew: Also, as regards to an earlier post: yes, editing had been purposely turned off for a reason. Do not question the admin's again.

I'm struggling to dispel notions about what this could possibly mean.

Also, I have been here for sometime and lost contact with the rule book. Lately I have just relied on common sense and decency to get by. Is it possible to be directed to the rule book so I can refresh my memory. I apologise if it's staring me in the face and I'm too blind to see it.

Andrew: When a user is banned, there is no going back.

This is the internet...the world wide web. I think all you have done is banned the name "Alan DuBoff"

Pretty harsh though. A life sentence, and in the season we celebrate good will to all. Still, I'm not privvy to the actual offence.

Merry Christmas to all and I hope the New Year treats you well.

Pressing the submit button............now

[Chris Pook]

This is the internet...the world wide web. I think all you have done is banned the name "Alan DuBoff"

Pretty harsh though. A life sentence, and in the season we celebrate good will to all. Still, I'm not privvy to the actual offence.

Merry Christmas to all and I hope the New Year treats you well.

Pressing the submit button............now

My guess his IP was banned. which means he can only come back on the site using someone elses computer or getting a new IP address.

I don't really understand why he'd delete his posts? He did seem to have some interesting opinions. But if you have an opinion you want to share, you have to respect other peoples opinions and not get childish about it.

[Ian]

Strine does raise some excellent points.

I understand editing was mainly meant to allow a user to correct a glowing spelling mistake, or some such typographical error. Without that we will all have to type a tad more carefully in future. It shows a lack of faith in the users that we all suffer for the actions of one.

What concerns me more is the rather Draconian statement that we must not question the admin. Why should we not? You administrate the site Sir's but WE give it life, we contribute and use it, without us it becomes stagnant, worth nothing, perhaps you should remember that. Your statement came across to me at least as inexcusably arrogant and if it had been aimed at myself I wouldn't appreciate it or its sentiment in the least.

Lastly the right of the user to his/her own intellectual property is also a concern, Glenn and myself have discussed this privately, I personally consider my reports are my copyright that Glenn can use with my permission but for everyone else it's worth reminding you that Iforgeiron.com has a blanket statement that essentially gives ALL copyright to any material posted to the site to the sites owner. This is to protect both the site and yourself from 'others' stealing and using material, but it does mean that unless you come to an arrangement with the operators of the site your contribution is the sites property.
I openly admit I may be mistaken here but 'all rights reserved' seems to be pretty clear in the page I looked at.

I'm not trying to cause a fight with anyone but I'd like to think that I'm backing a forum that is open to discussion with its members and that respects them and the contribution they make to the site. Telling someone essentially to 'shut up and mind your place' is not indicative of that kind of forum.

I wish everyone the best for Christmas and the New Year, I'm busy as a bee forging in Glen Moon's workshop helping get a commission done before Santa comes to pick it up, so it may be a bit before I'm back. Hopefully the festive season will freshen the air in here.

[e_mike]

ban me if you like for "questioning the admin" - can you say Messianic complex?, but where is the backup? As admin of a website one of your fiduciary duties is to perform a regular backup of the data (which includes verifying the recoverability of the backup). why wasn't this done and what have you done to ensure that any further disruption of service / data loss will be prevented?

if I am banned goodbye all it was wonderful reading all the ideas in each and every section. Keep up the good work.

Merry christmas, happy holidays and happy new year.

[J W Bennett]

This is gonna get ugly and all I really wanna do is beat metal into something useful or decorative. now everyone take 2 steps back from the keyboard and think before you type.


Merry???
Christmas

[Glenn]

Strine Let me address your post section by section on an informational basis. I apologize in advance as this will most likely be detailed and run a bit long. This is NOT to be directed toward you in any way, but only to answer your comments.

Obviously I can not see what all the fuss was over Alan since Alan’s posts are gone.

Let me review where and why this started. Reference: "can this anvil be salvaged" A person with 40 years blacksmithing experience tried to provide assistance to Alan who stated he had built 6 fires. Alan, in my opinion, did not accept the assistance in the spirit it was given, and became confrontational. The assistance is posted, but Alan's reply was deleted by Alan.

Alan, you have been given the benefit of 40 years of experience, please take his advice and the advice of others in the spirit it was given.

We need to get back on topic.

Post #9 on this thread refers to the start of the problem.

This is the post that caused the problem.

Post #29 and Post #30 (deleted) prompted my comment and as stated. The deletion of multiple (Alan DuBoff) posts deleted by Alan was the cause for his being banned.

Suffice to say there appears to have been quite a bit of fuss.

There was no fuss. I flagged Alan's membership with an "infraction" flag value = 1 (the lowest possible) which sent a notification to Alan. He then started deleting his posts. After the posts were deleted, he sent me a personal message (PM) through the site. His message read, “I think I cleaned most of it up for you Glenn.” It was only after I saw this thread that I realized what he ment.

But I'm seeing things slightly differently, maybe as a result of too many attempts at cryptic crosswords. Two things are troubling me
Surely it is Alan's rite to delete his postings and contributions when and when he wishes and for whoever reason. To that end I am asking how much of our posting are ours or, once they are posted, do they become yours (admin's) and we have no rights to our once, own intellectual property. An explanation would be much appreciated.

IForgeIron is building a blacksmithing resource, a legacy to the craft of blacksmithing and metalworking. When you build a resource one contribution and one post at a time, it is much like constructing a building one brick at a time. When a post is edited, it is like taking a skewed brick and turning it ever so slightly, so it is then properly placed into position. Alan did not adjust the bricks he contributed to the structure but REMOVED the bricks he contributed. The brick building now has many holes where those bricks (posts) have been removed. The building (site) is strong enough to continue to stand due to the strength and construction of the remaining bricks, but the holes remain.

You would not allow a brick layer to removed his bricks from a structure when he left the job site, or months or years later when he got upset for whatever reason. The same applies with the contributions and posts to the site, they must remain to support the site and the information continuity. If bricks were allowed to be removed, the entire structure would weaken and fall.

I'm struggling to dispel notions about what this could possibly mean.

When someone pulls bricks of information from the site with ill intention and intent to hurt I Forge Iron as a whole, the sensitivity level goes up. The edit feature was turned off to prevent removal of information until we can consider our options.

Also, I have been here for sometime and lost contact with the rule book. Lately I have just relied on common sense and decency to get by. Is it possible to be directed to the rule book so I can refresh my memory? I apologize if it's staring me in the face and I'm too blind to see it.

Common sense and decency is all that is requested in the guide lines. They are posted at Blacksmith Forum > I Forge Iron Forum > Keeping You Informed > New Site Guide Lines > post #1 and #5

Post #1

The Blacksmith Forum is a family site. The standards are set high. You are expected to conduct yourselves as gentlemen and ladies. Your posts are to be civil, polite, and respectful of others and their opinions. There are to be no "bad words", no personal attacks, and it should be able to be read from the front of the church on Sunday with no one being embarrassed.

The site is a way to exchange information. You may question or comment as you wish within these guide lines. Additional guide lines may be added as needed, and additions made to the rules of registration and any disclaimers as needed.

I charge each of you with assisting me in keeping the site a family site, a clean site, and operating within the guidelines set forth. I do not expect any problems, but if they were to occur, please contact me directly with your concerns.

Post #5

If you were invited into someone's home, or someone's business, would you be expected to conduct yourselves as gentlemen and ladies, to be civil, polite, and respectful of others and their opinions, and to not attack anyone personally?

This is YOUR home, and YOUR place for learning. If you answered yes to the question above, then it is how you expect others to conduct themselves already. It is only a rule if the expectations must be addressed and or enforced.

Everyone is invited to join us. Please make suggestions as how we can improved the site and make it better. Participate and make it YOUR home, YOUR place for learning.

This is not a rule book but a general guide line that has served us well for some 17,000 posts, and over 2000 images posted in the gallery. Of the 1, 200 registered members that understood our intent, we have had 3 or so that did not follow the guide lines, and were banned.

Pretty harsh though. A life sentence, and in the season we celebrate good will to all. Still, I'm not privy to the actual offence.

See the above explanation for details. Alan was banned for removal of information from the site with ill intention and intent to hurt I Forge Iron as a whole.

If someone tries to destroy something, you do not allow them back on the property. The time of year the offense ocured has nothing to do with the decision.

Ian,
I think your comment is answered with the removal of bricks illustration.

e-mike
We do have back ups. They are in place and functional. With improvements to the site, new features to the site about to be turned on, and many other things going on behind the scenes, it is a judgment call to move the site forward, or to take time and effort to replace what small amount of material Alan removed.

We encourage everyone to enjoy all the freedom of expression possible, within the guide lines of the site. We encourage communication between the membership and the administrators on any and all matters or subjects. Banning someone is the last option available in order to protect the site.

JWB
We will NOT allow things to get nasty or ugly. We encourage everyone to enjoy the freedom of expression possible in this country and on the internet, but ask them to please keep within the guide lines of the site.

To all:
We can be contacted through the site, by email, by phone and in many other ways. All work. We do listen to the voice(s) of the community, whether members of IForgeIron or not. We are always open for suggestions on how to improve the site.

On a personal note:
We are in the final stages before turning on new features to improve IForgeIron and to set the course the site will take in 2007 and the future. The people who post to the site become part of the informational resource by adding their contribution(s). It is those contributors that have built the site to where it is today. Thank you for your contributions and your support.

When a few individuals try to deface and or destroy what you have built through your contributions, we appreciate your understanding and support when we as administrators must act in your behalf for the better good of the blacksmithing and metalworking community.

[jeremy k]

I think people forget to easily that there is one person that is really in control of this site and regardless of what any one thinks "that person does have control", and that person is Glenn (and or anyone he has helping him do the administrative work). For if it was not his starting of this site - it wouldn't be where it is now - A very fabulous site for smiths of all skill levels from anywhere in the world to meet and learn. That is the purpose! Not an argument platform, granted there will always be differences in ways of doing things - of course that is natural. Polite differences in opinions are welcome as they promote different thinking. I know I get in ruts and then someone says: yada yada yada and then it's like wow - why didn't I think of that. Next thing I know my project was back on track and then finished, while at the same time I also learned something. I really think that Glenn has more than layed out the guide lines to be adhered to as far as posting: It's not unreasonable, The reference to the building with blocks is exactly how this site works. Everyone can benefit from everyone else by their knowledge, Whether it be little or vast.
Now I've looked and maybe I haven't looked in the right spots, but what I've found is that there are very few sites that have the content both written and photos wise that compare to IFORGEIRON. There are others - and I frequent them also along with many others here - and hey they go through the same issues from time to time with people,(as they have guidelines for their sites also).
The point I guess I'm triing to make and I'm not a writer or good with words but don't forget......(of course this would be a drastic measure but it's always an option - don't forget it) Glenn can pull the plug at any given time - This site is a vision of Glenns and a benefit to everyone that meets here, let's keep this site going with the want to help others and strive to keep the blacksmithing community growing. Just a thought - JK

[keykeeper]

I hereby second Jeremy K on his post. He is RIGHT on the money. Before Alan Duboff deleted his posts, I felt he was getting VERY CONFRONTATIONAL with his posts.

EVERYONE SHOULD AGREE THAT WITHOUT THE ADMIN'S SUPERVISION, THIS SITE WOULD GO DOWN THE TUBES VERY QUICKLY.

Glenn-Keep doing what you are doing, I see nothing wrong with the way you run the site.

Just my opinion!!!

[clark-kentski]

Ditto!! :)

[bruce wilcock]

I hereby second Jeremy K on his post. He is RIGHT on the money. Before Alan Duboff deleted his posts, I felt he was getting VERY CONFRONTATIONAL with his posts

yes i feel the same ,i didnt want to get involved with the anvil salvage question ,even though i felt i could contritubte but Alans prickely nature made me think twice about it ,and i dont think i was alone, this is a pitty as the idea as i see it is to build up a fund of info,and if we feel intimidated we wont stick our neck on the block,

[Glenn]

When anyone feels intimidated by another, something is wrong. It inhibits the exchange of information and makes the site a less comfortable place to visit. If you have an issue such as this in the future, please contact me, and I will look into the matter.


We are here to build an informational resource and to assist each other. There will be issues from time to time, but this is one of the very best groups of people anywhere. I am privileged to many stories where one blacksmith has gone out of his way to assist another in the craft. It warms your heart and restores your faith. It is a group I WANT to be associated with.

[kogatana]

I don't think the admin (Glenn and helpers) is abusing of his power.
I wouldn't even use the word power here, but monitoring (or find another more appropriate): the admin is here to prevent the train from derailing.
If one of us attempts a sabotage, he is notified his actions are inapropriate. If he persists, well, it is for the sake of the remaining passenger that the one be sanctioned.
We can't forget we are a comunity here, some people of IFI are not even american citizen, some live oustide the USA. Someone has to maintain a proper code of conduct, and have it respected.

Yes of course no edit is not convienient, yes, probably all of us finds it inconvinient, starting with me when yesterday I was looking everywhere the edit button, thought my computer had eaten it. But it is natural to keep the safeguards in place for some time after some troubles happened.

Cheers from Taiwan

Ludo