Ethics and honesty

[ciladog]

I have two questions to pose.

Is it ethical and honest to say that you hand forged a project if, in fact, you used a power hammer?

Is it ethical and honest to say that you forged (made) a project if you also used elements that you did not make like rivits? Or is that just splitting hairs?

[jeremy k]

Is it ethical to buy new steel and say it's forged? - Yes, Your doing just that... your starting with a piece and changing its shape by forging, whether its a full bar or something as small as a rivet that gets the one end forged down to "set" it. This topic has had a great amount of disscusion here on this site and on other sites, it all comes down to having to make some $$$ with the knowledge and equipement you have at the time, when you have the opportunity. - JK

[Mainely,Bob]

Yep.
You put it in the fire right?Your hands pulled it out right?Then you forged it with your hands.
If you used someone else`s hands or didn`t use heat then that would be another thing all together.
Rivets,come on now!do you make all the bolts to bolt things together too?Do you make the screws used to put an item up on the wall?
Yer losin` it Dog!Leave them hairs unsplit,do something about those fleas instead. :)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Splitting hairs, you are still directing the outcome of the item being made. You are not putting stock into a machine, and hitting the start button, then removing a finished part. It isn't like the "hand forged" machetes sold at the discount stores. They appear to be stamped out in some factory in Taiwan.

If you want, you could put 100% handmade on items that you make everything including rivets.

[David Einhorn]

Hand made usually means that a human was involved in the manufacture in applying his/her skill through the use of his/her hands. When something is not handmade it is usually because a machine is set on automatic and is punching out the product without human skill and interaction.

Same with the rivets. You are doing the final forging and shaping of the rivet, and you forged the shape of the part(s).

It might be easier to reword your question: Is it correct to say that it was not hand-made if you had to use your hands to apply skill and experience to the piece that was made. If a machine did not make it so can you say that a machine made it.

[Timothy Miller]

In my opinion I think one can say a piece is hand forged if you used a power hammer. Often times the piece is roughed out by the power hammer then finished by hand. But I draw the line at where people start stamping out the parts in closed dies and call it "hand forged" because the skills, ability and judgment of the smith become largely irrelevant. You are no longer a smith you are a machine operator at that point. I don't think the end user would care if you bought your fasteners instead of making them but they may see the contrast between the forged parts and the machine made rivets, screws or bolts. I had that exact problem recently and had to remove the rivets and replace them with hand made ones. It was about looks for the customer not how it was made. Did you make the steel that you used to make the object you said you made? One has to draw the line somewhere. The sad truth is If i could have squerted the whole thing out of a caulking gun and if it looked right the customer would have been happy. But the end result was only achievable by forging. Also you have to be happy with the work you do not some outside group of peers. Forging makes me happy and grinding welding not so much and the rest is all semantics.

[Francis Trez Cole]

you can always give your customer the option figure out the cost of you making a rivet . As far as a power hammer there is a skill level in using the hammer you could figure the hourly rate of a striker for the project even if you use a power hammer you still have to adjust the metal with a hand hammer and anvil. To give a little more to ponder King Architectural sells hand forged items from Koenig Elsen ltd when a architect in this area dose a design it is right out of the book is this hand forged wrought iron? so its really about educating your customers. And what they are willing to pay for that is what I have found.

When I first started blacksmithing I did a project were the customer wanted a period piece and the blacksmiths would have used wood charcoal I figured out the cost and they payed for the fuel

[arftist]

Why would you buy rivets? They are very easy to make.

[dablacksmith]

well... if you didnt use a power hammer but instead had someone swing a sledge could you still say you made it?the hand made part is in your skill to manipulate hot steel !as far as rivets it is like the steel you use .... you didnt make the steel (i dont think if ya did ya gota be chargin a mint)so the rivet is just a partially pre formed piece of steel!

[ciladog]

These are all good answers to the questions.

My dilemma is related to a project I just finished. I needed a small length of 1/8” chain so I tried forging it. I burned up as many links as I welded. After working on if for what seemed like an eternity, I had my chain but I didn’t like the way it came out. So I got a piece of 1/8” welded chain and filed off the welds then burned it up in the forge a bit to make it look like it was hand forged. I feel like I’m cheating but I’m sure I’ll get over it.

[ianinsa]

Well Ciladog, you "forged" it. If it had been money it would be wrong..... if not ?????????????????

No Fear you were not the first and won't be the last!

Ian

[fciron]

You took the time to file down the welds and heat the chain to match the rest of your work, that's the correct and responsible thing to do.

Your customer does not know what 'hand-forged' means, they do know if something has been custom-made for them and they can tell the product of a careful smith from a careless one. You tried hand-making chain and it didn't look right, so you made something better. That is doing right by your customer. Would it be more ethical to do bad work because you're angsty about the meaning of 'hand-forged'?

Do woodworkers get worried about using a table-saw vs. a hand-saw? I bet most of the hand-made wood-work at craft fairs has never been touched by a tool that didn't have a power-cord.

[ThomasPowers]

Doesn't this drop back to the "Workmanship of Certainty vs Workmanship of Risk" discussion? If it takes *your* skill to make a piece that's good then it's workmanship of risk and so qualifies as hand work.

If anyone could load the piece into the dies and hit the button and get the same result then that's workmanship of certainty and so does not qualify.

So closed die drop forged items are not "hand forged"; but open die power hammer items are.

Note that the earliest powerhammer I have been able to document was in use before the year 1000.

Note too that in the history of the craft smiths almost never made their own iron/steel---there are some exceptions but even in the early iron age iron was a trade item---see "currency bars"! (Now I have smelted my own iron from ore and it was a lot of fun but VERY in-efficient!)

[Ric Furrer]

Dog,
Woodworkers rarely grow the wood and most do not even process the tree...they alter planks. Using factory steel is similar.

My solution to your question was to actually smelt some iron ore and make some product from that....but the wood for the firing was bought and I use a store bought hand crank blower.
I guess I could have run down a deer or goat, beat it with a found rock or broke its neck and skinned it with a sharpened bit of knapped chert or obsidian and then made the bellows from its brain tanned hide.
Its the planting of the tree and waiting for the thing to grow large enough to make charcoal which takes the most time. I would, of course, shop it down with a rock axe which I have made by placing it in the crotch of another tree so as to grow a handle...to fall that tree I would borrow a stone axe from my neighbor.


I see nothing "wrong" with buying the chain and altering it. I do think you should work on the welding of your own chain...it will come with practice and maybe a tune-up from a smith more comfortable with the technique. You may wish to wait till you have another order for a chain to do so, but without practice at some point you will have the same issue to overcome.
The technique of forge welding has many uses and it is good to have it in your toolkit.

Till then I suggest this:
Do a longer bit of stock and double wrap it around the mandrel to make the link. Maybe even twist the ends of the wrap or scroll then and link the scrolls. Connect two of these with an "S" hook...in effect you have made a "chain" which has much much more interest than a simple set of links.....and you have worked around your lack of welding skills by designing a project within your toolkit of techniques.


Ric

[ciladog]

Ric

Thanks for the advice. However, I can forge weld, I do it all the time. But this was small links of 1/8” thick chain 7/8” long each link. That’s like making links from half of a 16 penny nail. I even made a small chain makers bick to make it easier but the tweezers just kept burning up. LOL

[John B]

Try heavier tomgs instead of tweezers, or oxy acetelyne if you have it

[Mainely,Bob]

I was going to suggest using a torch or pulling the burner from your gas forge and using it as a torch.When working thin cross sections or small projects I find the more easily controlled,localized heat of a torch or open burner a help.Think of those glass workers that make all the intricate sculptures from glass rods and the burners they use.They couldn`t do that near as well in a furnace.Watching them was what switched that light on for me.

I have to agree with John B.,why copy a store bought chain? When folks ask me to make something like a chain they expect me to show some creativity and I rarely make an exact copy of something they can get at the hardware store unless it`s in a material like bronze or wrought iron.The wrapped and non-welded chain in off beat link sizes is what makes the work unique.
If they want a welded link chain then I do just what you did,I tell them to go buy a length of whatever suits them then bring it back so I can "toast it" to match.

[ThomasPowers]

I keep my eye open for "old chain" at scrap yards and junk piles. Lots of folks want "old looking" but can't afford to pay me to make it. Old Farm scrap piles can actually turn up hand made chain at times. (a find of some rusty truck tire chains half buried on the side of the road has been used in a number of projects as it disassembled into a lot of sections of different styles...)

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

When I think hand-forged, I think heating the steel and working it into shape using your eye and hands to bring it to shape using whatever tools you may. When I think Machine forged, I think processes like drop forging or stamp forging where you have a die that does all the work for you and you are merely putting the piece into the machine and it does all of the shaping for you.

[Willis]

A power hammer is nothing but another tool for todays blacksmith to use,and cheating is owning someone elses work and passing it off as yours.
Bear in mind that the early blacksmiths didnt 'make' everything either, they used what was on hand in their shop, if they had a piece of chain they would have used it.
How much 'wrought iron' is really wrought iron in the blacksmith work of today?

[Ric Furrer]

Ric

Thanks for the advice. However, I can forge weld, I do it all the time. But this was small links of 1/8” thick chain 7/8” long each link. That’s like making links from half of a 16 penny nail. I even made a small chain makers bick to make it easier but the tweezers just kept burning up. LOL

Dog,
A note about the scale of work would have been useful.

What you are looking to do is a "pinch weld".
Hold the stock however you wish in the fire...not sure if you use coal or gas.
When hot and ready to weld...reach in with a scroll tong or some modified tong with enough mass in the jaw, yet small enough to get to the work and PINCH the weld closed.
When in the fire you have as perfect an environment as you can get in the shop to join these ends of metal...taking it out and wasting time and heat and exposing it to the air are all bad.
This sets the first weld ..in doing so you now have more mass at the weld interface and do not have to worry about lining up the ends.
When you take another welding pass you may do so in the fire again or on that bick you mention.

A torch may be the simplest way, but I would still pinch weld to begin with...lock the torch in the vise or to a table or in some way so as to have your hands free and the fire secured. Then bring the work to the fire and when ready pinch away.

Medieval and Ren keys were made this way and some were using oil lamps and blow pipets to increase the heat..like some soldering you still see in other parts of the world.

Don't think outside the box...think inside the fire.

Ric

[ThomasPowers]

I must admit that chain is a problem--I always notice machine made chain in hollywood medievaloid movies---they can't afford the "real stuff" either!

[ciladog]

Dog,
A note about the scale of work would have been useful.

What you are looking to do is a "pinch weld".
Hold the stock however you wish in the fire...not sure if you use coal or gas.
When hot and ready to weld...reach in with a scroll tong or some modified tong with enough mass in the jaw, yet small enough to get to the work and PINCH the weld closed.
When in the fire you have as perfect an environment as you can get in the shop to join these ends of metal...taking it out and wasting time and heat and exposing it to the air are all bad.
This sets the first weld ..in doing so you now have more mass at the weld interface and do not have to worry about lining up the ends.
When you take another welding pass you may do so in the fire again or on that bick you mention.

A torch may be the simplest way, but I would still pinch weld to begin with...lock the torch in the vise or to a table or in some way so as to have your hands free and the fire secured. Then bring the work to the fire and when ready pinch away.

Medieval and Ren keys were made this way and some were using oil lamps and blow pipets to increase the heat..like some soldering you still see in other parts of the world.

Don't think outside the box...think inside the fire.

Ric

Thanks Ric. I never heard of a pinch weld and will have to try it. I'm working with a coal forge. It all makes sense now, of course.

[Francis Trez Cole]

heave hammers are power hammers whether they are water powered, steam powered or belt powered. and have been for ages

[philip in china]

Why would you buy rivets? They are very easy to make.

They are also cheap to buy. Time has a value. I actually buy American made rivets and import them to China!

Here the locals have a lot of grille doors that fold away. These are held together by large numbers of rivets, So when I see one being scrapped I am on it like a vulture!