backstrap

[Talon Tex Overland]

Ok so how would you guys go about putting a brass backstrap on a knife? im tryin to make a bowie for my grandpa and i wanted to but a strip of brass on the back like you see on the old bowies.

On another note, i know i keep askin questions about things i never post pics of, and i swear as soon as i overcome my technological impairment and figuring out how to work all the buttons on my xxxx digital camera ill start posting pics of all my old projects ive asked for advice about.

[Rich Hale]

I am afraid I only have a poor answer for you and will offer it in two ways: I am not sure wot you mean by backstrap of the knife. If you mean the spine of the blade, or the top edge of the blade itself I can only say that I have never seen one of the spines that had brass on that portion of the blade, either in person or in books or on line. That of course does not mean that you have not seen one like that. If by backstrap you mean a part of the handle then again I have not seen one.
Now for the second part of this answer. If you mean the spine of the blade I believe I could solder a strip of brass down the edge and finish it so it looked fairly nice. I would not do that as the solder I would use has a melting point of 430f and is not as strong as some of the silver solder types that require a lot more heat. One I use takes over 1100f. With the low t4emp I could heat the spine up without altering the heat treat of the blade. (temper). The reason I would not use the low temp is I do not feel it has the strength necessary to keep the brass in place during wot this style of knife may be subjected to. Like chopping, hacking etc. A brass strip could also be mechanically inseerted into the spien f the blade by milling a dovetail both onto the brass and into the blade itself. Then after heat treat the brass could betapped into place. That may run the price up a bit as it would require a visit to someone good with a mill. If you mean as part of the handle I think that could be done fairly easy by making the knife with a coffin joint style of handle. That would take more space than I am willing to type in here but should be able to be found on line or in a knife making book or video. If I have not helped you in any way with this maybe you could post a pic of wot you want to do or even a rough sketch that would clear this up a bit.

[ThomasPowers]

A strip of brass on the back of the blade is a well known item for Bowies---supposedly the original had one for catching the opponent's blade in while parrying.

Low temp solder is the way I would go too. Use one that is below the tempering temp of the steel and you will have no problem with mucking up the heat treat of the blade if you are careful!

Here in America (hint adding your general location to your profile helps!) a lot of the hobby shops carry small brass stock in a variety of forms and you might be able to find channel that would be perfect for what you want to do---or remember that chanel is only Sq tubing with one side ground off...

[thecelticforge]

Thomas, I have little experience with brass. Isn't it much more brittle than bronze? Would bronze work better for knife fighting?

[edge9001]

I would suggest as close a fit as humanly possible with pins drilled and pressed into place.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

A question. I've seen pictures of the bowies with the brass or bronze backing he is talking about in pictures. How did they do that originally?

[ThomasPowers]

Depends on the brass, depends on the bronze. Sort of like saying a Ford can carry more than a chevy without specifying exactly *what* models you are talking about.

Actually nowadays they are generally called "copper based alloys" as you can have bronze alloys with lead and zinc in them and brass alloys with tin in them. Silicon bronze is often used by smiths as it works well and can be tig welded with no visible seams.

I'd *guess* that on the originals they were soft soldered on.

[tdaleh]

at the pka show in Denver there was a maker that had bowie knives with brass splines with no visible junction lines. do not know how he did it .looked like it was 1/4 inch by 1/4 inch. cant remember his name.

[golgotha forge & anvil]

Gil Hibben made a "toothpick" for Sly Stallone to use in his new movie "The Expendables". Gil also made the knife that Dolph Lundgren uses in the movie. Sly's knife has the brass piece on the spine of the blade. You can probably google Gil Hibben and come up with a site for his knives. I feel sure he would answer any questions you had!

Gene

[Longstrider]

I'm not sure that I'd trust a plain solder joint 100 percent to hold the brass backstrap in place along it's whole length if the knife was going to be used hard. Watch a super slo-mo of a large knife chopping hard materials and the amount of flexing and vibrating that occurs throughout the blade will stun you.
If I were to want to add a backstrap I'd like to mill the spine of the steel into a bull-nosed tongue and then machine a slot in the brass to match. This way the brass could be slid on lengthways before being soldered.
A bit like tongue and groove wood panelling, but the tongue would be bigger at the top than at the bottom to make a machanical fit as well as having the solder to hold it. A dovetail arrangement would work just as well.

It's only the "No added weights" rule in the BladeSports specifications that has stopped me from doing this with a competition cutter and a decent sized piece of something like tungsten simply to add mass to a thin-ish blade...

[jason0012]

I believe it was in Donna Miliech's book that I saw an illustration of the "old" way of doing this. The process was similar to inlaying gold or silver in engraving, with the brass spine being forged onto spines chisled out of the blade. The ends were also dovetailed if I recall corectly. I would try just brazing or even more blasphemous, MIG welding a nice bead of brass down the back side of the blade. This sounds far more decrative than funtional anyway.

[Dave Budd]

I've got to cross this bridge myself sometime next year (recently took an order for a backed bowie), so have been casually looking into it too

The originals that I've seen have either been pinned through the blade or have no obvious means of fixing. In those cases I'm going to guess that it's like a brass backed tenon saw; the ones I've looked at are mostly held in place by dovetailing slightly. I'm going to have a go at soldering (if you can solder a guard safely then this is no different), but a slight dovetailing in the groove/spine will hold in place and a bit of metal epoxy to keep moisture out.

[Longstrider]

I guess you're looking to make the spine of the blade into the 'male' part of the dovetail Dave ? Knowing you, I also guess you'll be bending the brass around that and "applying pecussive persuation" to fit the one to the other rather than machining out a 'female' profile to match from a bar of brass ?

[edge9001]

I guess you're looking to make the spine of the blade into the 'male' part of the dovetail Dave ? Knowing you, I also guess you'll be bending the brass around that and "applying pecussive persuation" to fit the one to the other rather than machining out a 'female' profile to match from a bar of brass ?

I tried that with copper and ended up breaking yet another blade. it seems that now I have more broken than completed blades.

[Dave Budd]

I guess you're looking to make the spine of the blade into the 'male' part of the dovetail Dave ? Knowing you, I also guess you'll be bending the brass around that and "applying pecussive persuation" to fit the one to the other rather than machining out a 'female' profile to match from a bar of brass ?

pretty much yeah. I took apart a broken saw yesterday (this thread got me thinking and i was procrastinating in the workshop!) and the back of the blade had been turned over a little so the blade was L-shaped at the back. I think if I were to fit the brass to a parallel blade (sabre ground knife or a saw blade) then I would turn the last 1mm of edge a little and then clamp the brass back to that, but if I'm fitting to a wedge shaped blade (full flat) then I'll rely of the wider part of teh V to lock in. The brass is going to be softer than the steel, so should deform onto it. I can always carve a groove down either side of the blade spine to add a key.

And yes, I will be bending a strip of brass to make the channel. The only channel/box I've found has been too thin and small section, though a nice brass angle iron might work. The only other issue is the alloys used. I've noticed that box and bar stock are a harder more brittle alloy than sheet, so I think for the brass to deform nicely around the dovetail it needs to be a malleable as possible

Edge9001, the key to not breaking the blade is to squeeze the brass into place not strike it. if you strike it the brass bounces back off the steel or you crack the blade (yep done that on stuff before too). Either use a press or vice, or use a pair of set tools that crimp either side of the flared steel dovetail.

[ThomasPowers]

The alloy may not be harder it's probably just sold work hardened---have you tried annealing it?

[Dave Budd]

yep tried that. So I asked the supplier when I was there next. it seems industry likes slightly stiffer/harder strips and bars but softer more malleable sheets, so that is what the stockists hold.

[John McPherson]

Sometimes the secret dies with the man. IIRC, Randle quit offering brass backed blades when the old welder who did that work in the secrecy of his own shop passed on. No one else was ever able to duplicate his technique. Some talented makers have tried and failed. Braze, solder, other? Who knows? X-rays or high magnification photos of some originals would be helpful.

[Brasilikilt]

Hello

I can't quite recall the specific origin of this reference, but I do remember reading about makers of Bowie knives in the mid 1800's "crimping" the brass strip on the spine of the blade.

The examples of "Bowie" knives in the 1820's and 30's I have seen (the ones in museums with proven ties to the Bowie family) never had the brass "blade catching" strip on the spine. They were a later invention likely to "dress up" an otherwise plain blade to add marketability.

Something to think about

Hope this helps

Iain