Gloves yet again, yet again

[youngdylan]

there has been a couple of recent threads on gloves, here,s one more.

The two pictues are from the same brochure for a blacksmithing course at West Dean. Now what is it your Homer Simpson says ..... Doh.

Mr muppet is sooner or later gonna learn how hot "hot steel" or that flame is, whilst the gloves on Ms Muppet are more of a safety hazard than safety device. Can't see her getting much of feel for the hammer and I guess it will get a few unscheduled flying lessons.

[Mainely,Bob]

It keeps coming back to situational awareness.
I just love that phrase,it appropriately covers so many things from not wearing a glove on your hammer hand to not being in the wrong part of town at the wrong time of day to knowing which direction those bullets are coming from and the nearest place with overhead cover during mortar fire.
Some people just stand still and look up with their flycatchers open when they hear that strange whistling sound.I`m betting the Muppet family would be in that group.Like a flock of baby turkeys in a rainstorm. :o

[youngdylan]

now Bob you've got to remember, just about the only type of turkeys we get over here are found in the chilled cabinets of supermarkets ..... what DO turkeys do in the rain.

Re the goves thing, I guess they'll still be having the debate in a 100 years from now, but I do love the fact the muppets are learning those working habits in a college.

[Mainely,Bob]

now Bob you've got to remember, just about the only type of turkeys we get over here are found in the chilled cabinets of supermarkets ..... what DO turkeys do in the rain.

Baby turkeys do three things mostly in this order;
1-look up
2-open their beaks
3-drown

1 and 2 can be interchanged but 3 is always the last thing they do.

As to the teaching as opposed to instruction thing,
Anyone who can read a book and talk at the same time can teach.It takes someone who has been there and done that to be an instructor.
Perhaps the folks who put on the program would be better served if they looked for real metalworkers to instruct the students rather than drafting professors to teach the course.
I`ve found that the people who insist that there is only one way to do something and only they know that way are the ones you need to pay the least attention to.
They have a tendency to close minds rather than open them.

[youngdylan]

Anyone who can read a book and talk at the same time can teach.

With you there, having been a school teacher myself (many years ago and came to hate it with a passion) I can relate to that totally.

There is nothing more true in this world than "those that can do, those that can't teach, and those that can't teach ... teach teachers".

There are of course a few honourable and notable exceptions ..... as some of the guys who teach blacksmithing and post here exemplify only to well.

All too many school teachers over here go straight into teaching direct from college .... not good. You just can't beat EXPERIENCE to learn from

[tzonoqua]

I did a degree in fine arts, silver and metals... I was taught to always wear gloves.

I believed at the time that "they" knew what they were talking about, they knew more than me of course, didn't they??

In my third year my course leader ( who is now the current course leader at the RCA Metal Arts course...) looked at me in disdain after I failed to embellish in words about what I had created in the forge and said that I should have done an apprenticeship to a blacksmith... (nice of him to wait til the third year to tell me.... ) (((and even though it was clear from the first year that I"d fallen in love with the process of forging))) but I have to say I learned nothing but bending and tapering in my degree.

I have now been self employed for a few years, and tackle each problem/opportunity as it comes. And guess what???? I don't wear gloves, unless I'm punching, etc, and the heat radiation makes it too uncomfortable to not wear gloves, but i'll wear tig welders' gloves, so fairly thin leather. Why not? experience has taught me that gloves are more often than not a hindrance, there is a place for them and a place without.

I suffer from CT, am prone to it (had it while i was pregnant and at that time not a hammer or bit of hot steel in sight) and don't think it's singularly blamed on forging, but i can say when i wear gloves my hands suffer fatigue.

I think it's good to always question why you do something etc. and learn from those explanations and most importantly, your own experience.

[Mainely,Bob]

You just can't beat EXPERIENCE to learn from

That would be the measure of a quality instructor,to have the ability to facilitate the transformation of experience based knowledge into a form that the students can grab onto and easily apply in their own learning process.
I used to tell my platoons the old Chinese proverb;"I hear and I forget,I see and I remember,I do and I understand".
My goal was to send them out with a clear understanding of what was needed to accomplish the task at hand and still remain flexible and adaptable to the situation.It mattered not what the officers or program of instruction said,the understanding of it was key.All else flowed from that understanding.

The mentors I had the most respect for had the ability to reach into your inner circuitry and flip the switch that would illuminate the ideas they were presenting.They allowed you to question and explore those ideas and discover the best way to apply them on a personal level.
They didn`t approach learning as teaching how to accomplish a task,they coached you into a way of looking at things that was different from the one you had when you walked thru the door on the first day.They took your thought processes to the next level.
There are teachers out there who just put out information and others who cause students to learn.The best instructors make others WANT to learn and reach their full potential,whatever that may be.
They motivate their students through example because they themselves believe that every day holds the opportunity to either learn something new or a new way to apply something already known.

[edge9001]

sounds like your describing one of my guys in iraq. while on fire guard duty he slept through a scum missle alarm. the rest of us got woke up by the all clear alarm. good thing for him and us it was dealt with before the missle got to us.

or maybe another on of our guys a real idiot who while he had been in the service for 17 years and a radio operator for 10 years I had to teach him antenae theory before we could leave for iraq.

[dimenickel]

nothing wrong with gloves... I wear them everyday for forging
its good to be informed and use as much safety stuff as the individual feels is necessary..

sorta the same argument with safety glasses... some people do, many people don't

[John B]

As to the teaching as opposed to instruction thing,
Anyone who can read a book and talk at the same time can teach.It takes someone who has been there and done that to be an instructor.
Perhaps the folks who put on the program would be better served if they looked for real metalworkers to instruct the students rather than drafting professors to teach the course.

Them as can does, them as can't teach, or so I was informed,

The sad thing is what this says about the education system currently in place regarding blacksmithing in the UK. It is not there for the students, or the craft, merely to get funding to pay the establishments costs, not enough interest (financial commitment from students) and the course is dropped.

This particular college is "A centre of study of arts, crafts, writing, gardening and music" and the tutors are members of the Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths, professional Artist Blacksmiths, a "respected author" on blacksmithing etc, all artistic based (and short non specific courses)

As Tzonoqua pointed out mostly bending and tapering, (first things done on a Guild taster day), and the college students practical learning process starts when their course is completed, and the college then has, and does not want to have, any further contact, unless you want to spend more money on the next level course, wave a cheque book and they will welcome you back with open arms so long as there are others to make up the numbers, and you follow what they want you to do, to their syllabus, which is not necessarily what you wanted from the course.

The classical example of this system regarding students and their potential future at their chosen future based on qualifications is the pre farriery certificate.

All the colleges and other establishments courses that cater for the exam preperation (with the exception of one known one)for this certificate will gladly enrol you and take your money, put you through various lengths of attendance depending on which establishment is chosen, and then you can take the practical exam, and off you go into the big wide world.

What they don't tell you when you enrol and pay your'e hard earnt money over is that unless you have an agreement and a position with a practicing Teaching Master Farrier, you cannot become a farrier, the very job you took the course for, not to say you won't get a position as a farriers apprentice, but most (and there aren't that many) of the positions are already taken, But hey, that's not the colleges problem.

Fortunately there are some alternative sources to learn the skills of the craft from, some are more difficult to find than others, and some have more to offer than others.


Aristotle got it right when he said "What we have to learn we learn by doing" a bit of guidance in the basic skills helps, what you do with the skills is down to you.

As someone who passes on what simple skills I have, the greatest high I get from the process is seeing students exceed my endeavours, definitely not from any financial rewards.

[Mainely,Bob]

Many times I have either been the sole source of a class outline or worked with another instructor to produce one only to see it chopped up and things taken out of order or out of context in the "silly-bus" we were held to and required to teach from.
More than once there`s been a parting of ways over this type of thing.

When I taught the basic and advanced NCO courses for the Army Reserves I was careful to state what was information needed for the exam and what was real world info.
Sometimes the things we were presenting from the Program of Instruction or the manuals and they were being tested on later would get you and your men hurt or killed in combat.I made sure my non-combat arms students knew that and also presented the real world approach to bringing everyone home alive for use after they passed the final exam and graduated the course.

As you say,one of the great satisfactions of teaching is to see your former students go on to eclipse their instructors and reach their full potential.No greater reward than to feel you had a small hand in that.

[dbrandow]

There is nothing more true in this world than "those that can do, those that can't teach, and those that can't teach ... teach teachers".

As an aside, the original quote was from Aristotle, who said that 'Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach'. This was later parodied as 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach' and later even further as 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. Those that can't teach, become guidance counsellors'. But few people realize that the latter two are both parodies of the original, which was intended to be complimentary.

[youngdylan]

As an aside, the original quote was from Aristotle, who said that 'Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach'. This was later parodied as 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach' and later even further as 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. Those that can't teach, become guidance counsellors'. But few people realize that the latter two are both parodies of the original, which was intended to be complimentary.

I learn somethimng new everyday......but as an ex teacher (and SO glad to be so) I can testify that the parodies are so more relevant in this day and age.......in particular "those that can't teach, teach teachers". There's a lot of ex teachers scared of the chalkface and doing little more than paying the mortgage by quoting dogma in those teacher trainer colleges.

[Drewed]

Gloves or no Gloves? And Why?

I go no gloves. I was taught that learning with gloves is great, but you get used to them. Then one day you don't have them.
Also that they give a false sense of "fire proofing." Better to use the tongs then a gloved hand.
Hammer control with gloves is horrible.
If something burning falls into a glove it is there until you get the glove off, where a simple flick of the wrist gets it off a hand ( unless its suck, then you have faster access to it.)

HOWEVER!!!!

I do have a set of gloves in the forge for when I handle sheet metal. Until it hits the forge. Fresh cut edges are very sharp.

[clinton]

I do not prefer to use gloves for general forging, never on the hammer hand. Sometimes a glove is needed when holding a piece to forge, I use Kevlar in this situation. Also when I am doing certain hot work with hand tooling it is needed because there is so much heat in the work that you can not do it without a glove. I have seen smithing done where an asbestos glove was needed to withstand the heat. I am not a big fan of gloves but sometimes you do need them. I also use nitrile coated gloves for general work around the shop, they do not take heat well and sparks just ruin them, but they do have their place they prevent a lot of cuts from sharp edges and keep your hands clean

[macbruce]

Well you kinda answered your own question.........some jobs ya need em some jobs ya don't.........Forging at the anvil they can take the ''feel'' away that's important to so many things.........At the PH doing heavier stuff I wear usually wear stout leather or hot mill gloves, they help to relieve shock and things that are real warm can be tolerated. I'm not talkin about using them for tongs.........Mindlessly toasting gloves is dumb and expensive
I like the blue nitrite gloves especially for changing dies in power hammers and other greasy, dirty things (mine are anyway) . Painting, patina work, yada,yada,yada.....
I feel like if a pair of gloves saves you one time from an injury they've paid for themselves......mb

[Marksnagel]

I use one glove on the off hand. Never on the hammer hand for control reasons. Like you've said, sometimes you feel like a glove, sometimes you don't.

Mark<><

[jimmy seale]

well, being a ol rough hand we wear cotton gloves.one time i got the cuff caught on a bolt of the elevators and it was pretty beat up but not broke. so be careful with when and where you use em.with cotton ya pretty skeert so you are liable to rip it off and maybe save yourself.but i use one on the left tong hand.. so iffin any ya'll want the right side i got some. this is not to say don't use good leather ones i got them too, just use in the proper place. i shure hope i got ya throughly confussed.

[ThomasPowers]

Can we just reference the last *long* discussion on this topic?

[Old N Rusty]

Gloves for T.I.G. welding. wear the size that is the loosest on your tong hand. Dont burn them by seeing how much heat you can stand wearing them. Never use a grinder without both of them on, never use a drill press with any gloves on.

[thingmaker3]

Baby turkeys do three things mostly in this order;
1-look up
2-open their beaks
3-drown

1 and 2 can be interchanged but 3 is always the last thing they do.

That's a myth, Buster.

[Frank Turley]

I'm not totally anti-sports in the curriculum, but this is the way I heard it. "Them as can't do, teach. Them as can't teach, coach. And there's an awful lot of ex-coaches in Administration."

[Ted T]

Stewart, I wish I had said that!!!  A good, short, to the point summary!

 

"Safety is a situational issue, and should always be at the forefront of a blacksmith's thinking"