Unions!

[JmShrader]

George, has there been any headway made on the licensing front for front in regards to guys being grandfathered in, never taking a test but getting a commission license, taking that license to another state and getting reciprocal commission license? 
 

J.m Shrader here George,

it’s been a while old buddy,  hope all is well. A lot has changed since I left horseshoes back in ‘11/12. I was under a horse 2weeks ago for the first time since the summer of 2013 when I had my bad accident and they didn’t think I was gonna walk again and was in another accident back April of this year. Broke my left femur,  broke the femoral head off in the hip and broke the other end plumb off at the knee. Got about 19” of titanium rod and 15 screws in it. Felt good to get under a horse again. Like riding a bike tho,you never forget lol  George, I’d have a chance drop me aPM.

[George N. M.]

Dear Mr. Shrader,

You might try PMing Mr. Geist directly since there is no guarantee that he will see your message.  If you quote someone the forum sends a notice when they log into IFI but otherwise unless someone comes back to this thread they will not know that you posted.

Good luck in making contact.

The other George

[Glenn]

Mods and admins work behind the scenes to get things done.  George Geist was sent a PM and a email informing him that Mr. Shrader wished to contact him. 

Thank you for your post.

[George Geist]

Thanks for PM.

JM,

The thing you're talking about did get fixed in PA for a few years but this year they changed the law which enables them do legally do what they were previously doing illegally. As long as there is no national governing body, and it continues to be overseen by state commissions it will continue to have frequently changing rules in every jurisdiction impossible to keep up with by anybody.

All I can tell you is to best of my knowledge the only place in this country that everybody definitely gets tested is California. 

Aside of that its easier than ever to get on a racetrack right now and when someone is licensed and in there is no getting rid of them.

George 

[JmShrader]

George,California definitely still has a pretty good testing protocol for commission licensing. I think Harry Patton has a hand in setting up the state testing and seeing as Harry was a IUJH man,the practical portion of the test was loosely based on our union test.  
 

the test here has been basicly a sham since they shut down the shops at both Charles town and Shenandoah.  If the powers that be don’t want you have a license,be it horseshoer,trainer,assistant trainer your not gonna get your license if fly even get to take the test,they have a habit of being moved to the bottom of the pile. There is too many guys shoeing horses who have no business shoeing horses.  Thanks for the email George,I sent you one back so as to keep personal back and forth off of the boards. 

[George Geist]

For those of you that have kids, latest benefit introduced by the Boilermakers is free college. Look into it folks, it's a good deal.

George 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Well after the union breaking of the 80’s we have had wage stagnation (1.5% wage growth for the working middle class vs 3% inflation. Now not to say that in non right to work states that some unions got the idea that the workers worked for the union and not the other way around, but the the right to work states they have generally been a good thing.

worked as a mechanic for years, flat rate is a fair deal for both the customer and the mechanic who has invested in tools, training and experience. My self I averaged about 10% better than rate, but I had a cumback rate close to zero (faulty parts) thus I did a lot of in-house warranty when the “flat-raters” with 30% plus comeback rates couldn’t keep up with their own work.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I am on the fence about farrier licensing. Sure $100 trims and $300 showings would be nice but what I have seen with the two major certification bodies is a lot of “old school” non best practice techniques, and show politics. 
 

[Mod34]

MOD NOTE: The topic of unions can quickly veer into political discussion, which is not permitted under the IFI TOS. Tread carefully.

[Charles R. Stevens]

But I am so looking forward to a call from Glenn! It has been so long...

[George Geist]

8 hours ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

I am on the fence about farrier licensing. Sure $100 trims and $300 showings would be nice but what I have seen with the two major certification bodies is a lot of “old school” non best practice techniques, and show politics. 
 

You talking about testing?

Certification and licensing are two totally separate issues.

Licensing would require laws being passed at least at the state level which isn't on any legislature's radar screen right now. I don't see it ever happening because nobody outside the industry cares, nor do most people in the industry. 

Certification would be a good thing if something could be done to create some kind of demand for it from the people paying the Bill's. It has its good and bad points.

[George N. M.]

Generally, legal licensing of any craft or profession comes up only in a few scenarios, 1) citizens are getting ripped of or otherwise damaged by unskilled or crooked operators.  Sometimes, the bad actors are actually malicious and sometimes they are just incompetent or poor business people.  Licensing is usually intended to set minimum qualifications and may require some kind of financial assurances to the customers such as insurance or bonding.  2) People in a certain area of business or trade convince the legislators that licensing is necessary to protect the public but it is really just a form of protectionism and restriction of trade to protect vested interests.  3) Something is seen as an inherent threat to public safety and good and is suspected of having a great risk of danger to the public and the legislature decides that licensing is a way to minimize the potential damage to the public. 

I am not saying that any of these are good or bad, so, I don't consider this as veering toward a political direction.  This is just my observation from years of being involved with lots of different licensing.

There are legitimate arguments about the benefits and detriments of licensing.  Like just about everything else nothing is purely black and white.

And dynamics can change over time.  Something that started out as a  protection of the public scheme can turn into an unintended business dynamic.  For example, see the trade in and problems with taxi cab medallions in NYC.  The Rule of Unintended Consequences can result is something very different than what was originally intended.

Licensing involves the government and violations can result in criminal or civil penalties.

On the other hand, certification is usually via a private organization which establishes certain standards of skill or education in a particular area.  Being able to say that you are a certified X should be a business advantage but only when the public recognizes that trading with a certified X is to their advantage.  Sometimes certification can be an advantage to a practitioner of a craft or profession because it will enhance their employment opportunities.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand." 

[anvil]

I like your last line there, George.

Seems that means if you keep people "out", those already "in" make more money.  

[JHCC]

7 hours ago, George N. M. said:

On the other hand, certification is usually via a private organization which establishes certain standards of skill or education in a particular area.  Being able to say that you are a certified X should be a business advantage but only when the public recognizes that trading with a certified X is to their advantage. 

There's perhaps an interesting parallel here between the bladesmithing world and that of my daytime profession of fundraising. The American Bladesmith Society has their Master Blacksmith certification, while in the fundraising world, there is the Certified Fund Raising Executive certification (originally run by the Fund Raising School at Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis, now its own independent organization). For both, whether or not the certification carries any weight depends entirely on the public perception of the value of that credential. One could argue that the perceived value of the ABS MS credential has increased to some degree through the success of "Forged in Fire", while the CFRE credential has decreased somewhat with increased competition from the wider availability of the nonprofit management degree programs (which range from academic certificates to doctorates) run by many universities. It's interesting to note, however, that while the MS credential can be more in play with the direct interaction between smith and customer, both CRFE and the various nonprofit programs have more to do with hiring and promotion decisions than anything else. The only credential that major donors care about is an individual gift officer's ability to understand their philanthropic intentions and connect them with opportunities to make meaningful differences.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Unfortunately in the world of equine hoof care the Ford truck created a situation where the good business like farriers became mechanics wile the only ones left were the “unreliable womanizing drunks” the profession is known for. It was simple economics in which the public moved on from the horse pretty quickly, WWII put the nail in that coffin with moving on from the work horse. 
I spend a lot of time reading research papers, trade journals and pre copyright manuals and journals. A lot of what is tooted as “new” technology in our profession is something rediscovered or completely goofy just to sell a product. So coming from this background of old knowledge from when horses were necessary for transportation, industry and war and some good research over the last decade. Now compare this to the testing requirements for the two main certification bodies here in the US. It’s a craps shoot whether the “master farrier” giving the test is up on what is best practice. If you bring me a horse with many conditions I am reaching for an EDS package, not a wedge pad, young bar, or another of older technology. Just look at the shoe board requirements, half those shoes are not even used anymore. 
understand that I have come from being an ASE Master certified technician and an EMT to being a farrier. The certification bodies  don’t even have a continuing education requirement or a periodic recertification so the guy testing you may be behind the times. Not to mention the politics. 

when it comes to the State they tend to be lazy and will tap the existing bodies for certification. I had a front row seat for Certified Crime Analogists as my friend and his partner have written both 90% of the existing software used  and 10 of the 12 test segments. It was a fight with the politicians to make sure best practice was maintained but the war on terror had produced a lot of experience for a fledgling industry.