how to flatten some leaf springs with what is available.

[Black_Flame]

I've read up on a few sites on how to flatten these but i dont have the main tools that those sites mention. So I am asking for any manor of help or suggestions on how to properly and proportionatly flatten a leaf spring that I am going to be making some tools/knives and possibly a sword out of. I have an Oxygen-Acetylene torch that im thinking might be somehow helpful in doing most of the work as well as most basic equipment you'd find in a tool shed. I was also wondering on what I should flatten this steel against (another fairly thick flat sheet of steel with a higher melting point or a flat slab of cement?).

I also wanted to mention that I havent tested this steel out yet to see if it really is quality spring steel (5160?) and that it has a black rust-proof shell coating which I'm assuming I can just power sand off or something.

I do know that if I am going to use that torch that I am going to have to reheat treat the steel, temper it and oil quench it. I am a complete noob at this so any kind of input, advice or hint would be greatly appreciated.

Mark B.

[Rob Browne]

Mark,

I know you are keen but before you take on some leaf springs how about getting some mild, making a simple earth forge, getting a lump of steel for an anvil and simply heating and beating it to shape. Leaf springs are much tougher and bigger to handle and not really suitable for your first project.

As for re-heat treating, yes you would have to heat treat again.

[David Einhorn]

I've read up on a few sites on how to flatten these but i dont have the main tools... I have an Oxygen-Acetylene torch that im thinking might be somehow helpful in doing most of the work as well as most basic equipment you'd find in a tool shed. I was also wondering on what I should flatten this steel against (another fairly thick flat sheet of steel with a higher melting point or a flat slab of cement?)......Mark B.

Using your tools: your heat source and a flat surface, and a misc. hammer.
Using tools that will not frustrate you: a forge, a decent hammer, and a large piece of flat steel of sufficient mass

.....I do know that if I am going to use that torch that I am going to have to reheat treat the steel, temper it and oil quench it....Mark B.

A forge, a trough with the appropriate liquid coolant for the type of steel used.

Question: Why a decent hammer?
Answer: Because you can either shape metal or make lots of dents in it, not both.

Some lessons can only be learned by trying it the hard way first. I expect this will be a learning experience. ;)

[Black_Flame]

thank you for both of your helpful comments. I'm going to try to reply to them both;

I do have some mild-steel I can start out on =) lots of scraps cut off (but i dont just have scraps) from stock removal. I'm going to have to just use the torch though...cant set up a full forge yet. Allthough I was kinda thinking of using one of those torches for making a mini forge and learning a few basics with the scrap pieces...just the place where im living they dont want me making a forge on their property. (safety issues, cleaning issues as well as insurance issues)..im gonna have to do that at my old house where my parents live. Also I dont know if this will at all help make a "forge" but theres Plenty of cheap cast iron stoves on clearance at my work....I still dont know if i should trust that idea though.

I am however, an employee at canadian tire and have an idea for making my own coal forge out of a few used bricks, a cast iron grill, some wet cement, a coal bucket (turn it upside down on the grill and drill a hole out of the top) and maybe a fan with some ventilation tubing to blow the air from underneath the hot coals up through the grate into a "chimnea" i bet this must seem rather silly though as I have not had any experience in making a forge.

B.T.W. I only want to streighten those spring steel leaf springs...I dont want to work them right yet...I'm going to save them for when I have everything ready and when I think I get the hang of things. I just hate looking at them sitting beside me all bent and feeling forgotten. lol I have enough trouble stopping myself from burning the mild steel from stock removal because I sometimes just want to finish up and relax inside after a long day at work. (I usually work overtime 8-6 monday-friday and even get called in to work sometimes on the weekend because someone doesnt show) but no I do not want to mess up on any quality material I have and want to try and scrap as little as possible.

Anyways, Thank you for your advice and concern. Hopefully I can ask around tomorrow and maybe find something apropriate I can use for a forging hammer and possibly an anvil....maybe I can flatten out the surface of a sledge hammer head or buy a large vice. That alone is going to be a challenge since I highly doubt anyone who works there has knowledge on forging steel (apart from maybe the Auto repair shop)

[ThomasPowers]

Find the nearest Smithing Group!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if you hgave to drive a couple of hours for meetings you will SAVE big time by learning the basics from folks who know what they are doing.

[Frosty]

There's no point in straightening the spring stock till you're ready to make something from it. How long do you think you should let it sit after overheating it with a torch? Hours, days months? Not over heat it at all?

Get yourself to a meeting you will save yourself a HUGE amount of time. Seriously, if you haven't even searched this site for the dozens of forge designs and plans you just aren't going to do well teaching yourself smithing. You are literally trying to reinvent metallurgy and you don't even know what color dirt to look for.

Frosty

[beth]

good advice from the guys black flame - get with some others for some practical hands on help- its the most easy and fun way to get to know what you want to know. Good luck with it all:)

[John B]

Why do you need to flatten the springs at all? Just think of them as a stock store as they are, then when you are ready to forge, You can use your oxy acetelyne to cut them up to a more manageable size appropriate to what you want to produce,

They will be easier to straighten as your first heat / forging process

[matt87]

I don't know a massive amount about torches so if I'm way off someone please tell me, but how are you planning on annealing an entire leaf spring with an OA torch? I'm not sure I'd be happy having a 2-foot length of mystery steel with a random, inconsistent heat-treatment and a considerable risk of pre-existsing stress fractures sitting around a workshop for any length of time...

Solid-fuel forges aren't rocket surgery; they're easy to over-think and I'm as guilty of this as anyone. Assuming you don't have peaty soil you can do very well with a hole in the ground about the size of your two fists next to each other. Add a pipe (even copper water pipe will do) leading into the bottom of the side wall of the forge at a downwards angle, making sure the pipe doesn't stick into the 'void' and keep the earth damp. Add an air source of any type -- electric is convenient if you can power it. If your landlord/lady/parents/whomever are happy with you running an OA rig I'd be surprised if they're not happy with what is essentially an 'assisted aspiration' camp fire Assessing, planning for and mitigating the potential risks and demonstrating this should go a long way towards getting the "OK"!

[David Einhorn]

....Assuming you don't have peaty soil you can do very well with a hole in the ground about the size of your two fists next to each other. Add a pipe ....

Great idea! :D

[matt87]

Great idea!

Dagnabbit I was just about to patent my invention and retire on the royalties...

[Frosty]

Royalties, so that's what you call the thing you're sitting on Matt?

Frosty

[Black_Flame]

Find the nearest Smithing Group!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even if you hgave to drive a couple of hours for meetings you will SAVE big time by learning the basics from folks who know what they are doing.

Unfortunately Im not fully liscenced to drive yet and am working every day except the weekends but I'm still looking for some group or individual near Pembroke or Deep River, Ontario (where I am right now) I'm trying to ask my dad if he knows anyone at work who does blacksmithing or metalworking as a hobby. He is a Branch Manager of A.E.C.L (Atomic Energy of Canada Limited) so has lots of connections. My g.f's parents would probably be willing to drive me anywhere around pembroke-Deep River area on the weekends if i cant find some blacksmith around the area here.
I know a few good places in ottawa where I could start looking for some professionals (theres a whole street in Ottawa thats full of metalworking factories. I'm sure there would atleast be one blacksmith there or at the college) If that fails then I would probably have to visit Toronto sometime...they had some metalworking or blacksmithing course or something there with all the tools I'd ever dream of.

There's no point in straightening the spring stock till you're ready to make something from it. How long do you think you should let it sit after overheating it with a torch? Hours, days months? Not over heat it at all?

Get yourself to a meeting you will save yourself a HUGE amount of time. Seriously, if you haven't even searched this site for the dozens of forge designs and plans you just aren't going to do well teaching yourself smithing. You are literally trying to reinvent metallurgy and you don't even know what color dirt to look for.

Frosty

I realised this after I just posted it lol....I was thinking to myself "wait a minute...if I'm going to do all that to it then I might as well be forging it anyways"...if I take that coating off its just going to really sit there and rust.

But yes I'm trying to get that forge desighn down on paper and get all the peices for it (including something to use for an anvil). I have looked at many of the forge desighns and am amazed. I dont know which would be the cleanest and safest to use though (aside form one that I would have to purchase). I'm kind of excited just thinking about making it but at the same time i know nothings going to work out properly unless i find someone around here to help me lol.

Why do you need to flatten the springs at all? Just think of them as a stock store as they are, then when you are ready to forge, You can use your oxy acetelyne to cut them up to a more manageable size appropriate to what you want to produce,

They will be easier to straighten as your first heat / forging process

Good thinking...I never would have thought of that method until it was too late.

Anyways I have to run back to work. I see I still have a lot of comments to catch up on lol I'll be back. Thank you guys for your time and expert opinions =)

[Frosty]

I realised this after I just posted it lol....I was thinking to myself "wait a minute...if I'm going to do all that to it then I might as well be forging it anyways"...if I take that coating off its just going to really sit there and rust.

Rust isn't the problem, it isn't even a consideration. It's the stresses you will cause with the torch that will make the steel a potential bomb. No kidding it can shatter just sitting on a shelf. I'm reasonably sure you wouldn't want your Mother, Father, little Sister or Brother getting hit by sharp fast moving shrapnel would you?

Blacksmithing is inherently dangerous even when you know what you're doing. Playing with fire and dangerous materials without knowing anything about it is REALLY dangerous.

Frosty

[Black_Flame]

Rust isn't the problem, it isn't even a consideration. It's the stresses you will cause with the torch that will make the steel a potential bomb. No kidding it can shatter just sitting on a shelf. I'm reasonably sure you wouldn't want your Mother, Father, little Sister or Brother getting hit by sharp fast moving shrapnel would you?

Blacksmithing is inherently dangerous even when you know what you're doing. Playing with fire and dangerous materials without knowing anything about it is REALLY dangerous.

Frosty

I didnt know that the stresses in the steel after forging can become that great to even shatter itself. I'm guessing you were hinting that that is what will happen if you dont anneal it after straightening it? Thats pretty crazy...It really blows my mind just how many questions I'm asking myslef now compared to before and I need to be able to answer most of them before I even start wroking on forging anything.

I don't know a massive amount about torches so if I'm way off someone please tell me, but how are you planning on annealing an entire leaf spring with an OA torch? I'm not sure I'd be happy having a 2-foot length of mystery steel with a random, inconsistent heat-treatment and a considerable risk of pre-existsing stress fractures sitting around a workshop for any length of time...

Solid-fuel forges aren't rocket surgery; they're easy to over-think and I'm as guilty of this as anyone. Assuming you don't have peaty soil you can do very well with a hole in the ground about the size of your two fists next to each other. Add a pipe (even copper water pipe will do) leading into the bottom of the side wall of the forge at a downwards angle, making sure the pipe doesn't stick into the 'void' and keep the earth damp. Add an air source of any type -- electric is convenient if you can power it. If your landlord/lady/parents/whomever are happy with you running an OA rig I'd be surprised if they're not happy with what is essentially an 'assisted aspiration' camp fire Assessing, planning for and mitigating the potential risks and demonstrating this should go a long way towards getting the "OK"!

Oh man I would want to spend a lil money and upgrade from that otherwise I might as well start digging a hole in the ground with half a used septic tank with some "solid fuel" left in it and use that as my forge XD thats awesome though lol. I have a question for you guys though...can you make a forge out of a solid cast iron wood stove? and how would you set it up to be "safe" and "clean" if you could?

one item I was contemplating on for using as part of a forge :/ not too sure though
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2/OutdoorLiving/TheOutdoorRoom/ExoticAccessories/PRD~0851083P/43-in.%2BChiminea.jsp Edited September 22, 2009 by Black_Flame

[matt87]

Royalties, so that's what you call the thing you're sitting on Matt?

Well after realising my retire-by-age-25 invention is a no-go it turns out I'm sitting on a load of hot air!

Oh man I would want to spend a lil money and upgrade from that otherwise I might as well start digging a hole in the ground with half a used septic tank with some "solid fuel" left in it and use that as my forge XD thats awesome though lol.

You might laugh, but dung is used as a fuel for many purposes around the world and through history, including smithing! No bullsh... erm... hmm family forum, best move on...

I have a question for you guys though...can you make a forge out of a solid cast iron wood stove? and how would you set it up to be "safe" and "clean" if you could? In the meantime im gonna try and find some pics of things i saw at my workplace and try to come up with an image explaining some idea i had for making my own coal forge. (which would probably be a failure) but I just want to see if anyone will confirm that.

Quite possibly, but it's difficult to say without looking at the individual design and it sounds like a lot of unneccesary bother to me. There are many ways to build effective forges with 'found' materials. One that surprised me how well it worked was a few old housebricks and a piece of pipe from a dumped shopping trolley. I basically formed a firepot by arranging four bricks in a hollow square (air pipe coming in one side) and adding 'depth' to the fire with a couple more bricks on top. Fuel was charcoal, blower made from one of these Uxsight: Barbecue Hand Crank Fire Air Blower BBQ Accessories : BBQ Tools & Accessories I got from the

[Frosty]

I didn't hint at anything, I asked a specific question in the hope you'd actually look for the answer before replying. Oh well.

The stresses would be caused by you over heating it and unevenly to boot with a torch. Generally 5160 is pretty forgiving of bad heat treat but there are limits and if you don't even know about the hazards how are you going to avoid violating even broad limits?

A cast iron stove is designed to heat a room, trying to forge in one, even converted however you imagine that might be done will broil you in your own juices.

If you just HAVE to have cast iron find a cast iron hibatchi, a blow drier and a piece of pipe the blow drier will fit into and just get with it. You are overthinking everything simply because you aren't taking hard won knowledge seriously. Two ears, one mouth listen twice as much as you talk is a good rule of thumb. LOL . . . NOT.

Attached pic is me reforging a bent log tong, the closest thing to a "real" blacksmithing tool I had was a hammer. The air blast is from a Coleman Inflat All, a 12v air matress, raft, etc. inflater and a piece of pipe.

I'm burning green birch and don't even have a hole to . . . burn it in.

So how about you get serious, stop trying to invent things you don't understand, stop explaining things to US, open your ears, talk less and make some progress.

Go to the blueprints section and start with the "Getting Started" section and "Lessons in Blacksmithing". Start with lesson #1 and work your way through them. Ask questions as they come up and give the answers a try.

Please, do not explain to me all the reasons you simply can NOT do this. If you can't you probably aren't going to be even adequate as a blacksmith.

Frosty

[chuckster2.0]

Here is what to do. Go to Lowes's and get these supplies.

1. Galvanized wastub
2. Threaded pipe
3. End cap
4. ball peen hammer
5. lump charcoal.
6. 50 lb bag of sand
Now go to Harbor freight and get
1. 50 lb anvil
2.Cross peen hammer
3. welding gloves
4. safety glasses
Go to a hobby store and get eathenware clay.
Now make this

the grey stuff is the sand and clay mixed together.
There may be a blueprint on this site but if not, just look up wash tub forge. For all of this and the low price of $105 you too can become a bladesmith. Start with railroad spikes then leaf springs. Also you may want to look up charcoal maker since it is a pain to keep buying charcoal (which you will use a lot of). Good luck!

[ThomasPowers]

And note you can scrounge all this stuff and do it for the cost of your time! (exp doesn't have to be "earthenware clay" clay out of a local creek will work, I'd suggest mixing it with wood ashes and sand)

Or the real cheap clay kitty litter can be allowed to soak in water.

Any big chunk of steel with at least one flat face can be used as an anvil.

The Neo-Tribal Metalsmiths even have even used rocks instead of an anvil...

[TASMITH]

Black_Flame, there are a couple of members on this forum who are in your general area and I am sure they would enjoy a visit from you. One is Robert Mayo in Renfrew, and the other is Che Guevara (evolutioniron.com) who lives in Winchester. There are several of us a little further south of you in the Kingston Area as well. I am in Lyndhurst (a half hour north of Kingston off Highway 15).
We are all willing to help out as much as we can.

Terry

[chuckster2.0]

I wish there were bladesmiths in my area willing to help me out without charging me over $100 for a few hours of their time. I think if I become a good enough bladesmith, I won't charge a penny for teaching them but I will get 2% of any earnings they make from selling their first 100 knives.

[Dragons lair]

Just gotta stick this in. Frosty he may be the one to come up with a nuck forge. Welding heat in a nanosec. Chuckstar if a man can make or do a $100 in an hour or two
Working Why should he give you or me the time for free? I have an open shop but Teach you what I know so you can under bid me I think not.
Ken

[Frosty]

He may well Ken and I wouldn't be all that surprised if he does make some serious contributions. Maybe I was too obscure when I said he reminded me of me when I was a kid?

So I was a bit short, that was nothing to what can happen going off half cocked in a metal shop, especially when you think you're smarter than folk who've been doing the work for decades.

Do you think he knows enough to stay out of the plane of rotation?

Not to power brush the leading edge?

How about something as simple as not striking hammer faces together?

Not over pressuring the acet?

Which do you think is the harsher lesson, a sharp word, losing an eye, worse?

What did I say? Stop trying to reinvent the wheel when there are all kinds of plans available? Stop saying "I can't" instead of giving it a try?

Were he close enough I would've invited him over long ago just like I invite anyone over. I think he's pretty bright, all he needs is some solid guidance he'll listen to which would take my lesson #1 to cure the "I don't need to learn the craft to make swords" sillyness.

Lesson #1 is a simple leaf hook with a twisted shank. I demo it with full explanations of the tools, hammer blows and the reasons for every single step while answering any questions. It takes me maybe 15 mins depending on how many questions there are. Then I pull up my stool and the student spends on average, the next four hours trying to duplicate it with me coaching. It's a humbling but satisfying experience.

Seriously, who of us hasn't had fantasies? I know when I was younger I was always fantasizing about being a natural wonder at a new job, inventing new super devices, methods, etc. Heck, my Father encouraged that kind of thinking to a point. I still do it, I'm just not in the face of people who know the trade about it anymore.

Frosty

[nonjic]

hey frosty, good points, but what the eck is a plane of rotation? youve got me worried now!

From what ive seen in general on smithing (and life ) is theres those that find a reason / way to get somthing done, and those that can always find a reason not to! I find myself slipping into the latter catagory sometimes and have to give myself a metophorical slap, then find a way of getting the job done!

[Raggedstaff]

Hi Blackflame,

I forged my first knife by blowing on charcoal in an old bbq to get it to temp. I used a sledge hammer head as an anvil and a claw hammer to hit it.

It was a horrible looking piece of crap, but it was a blade and it was made by me. I learned a lot by simply trying, but more importantly I found out where the gaps in my knowledge and skills were. A place like this is full of people with a huge amount of knowledge and an admirable willingness to help others. All they want in return is a hint that you are willing to give it a go.

If you say "I tried to do 'a' and this is what happened, how do I do it better?" you will be amazed at how many people fall over themselves to help you out. If you simply say "How do I do 'a'?" then people will assume you aren't serious. Successful blacksmiths are the sort of people who not only want to understand, but that want to do. I have tried some pretty silly stuff just to see what happens. The simple answer is that I come away knowing more than I did at the start.

Have a play with some of the steel you have. Heat some to red and let it cool, see if it gets softer. Do it again and quench it, what is it like then. Snap a bit in a vice and look at the broken ends, can you see the grain? Then when you know a little about what you have give us a shout and we'll answer any questions you might have.

The most important thing is to simply have fun. That is why we all do this.