Black_Flame

I didnt know that the stresses in the steel after forging can become that great to even shatter itself. I'm guessing you were hinting that that is what will happen if you dont anneal it after straightening it? Thats pretty crazy...It really blows my mind just how many questions I'm asking myslef now compared to before and I need to be able to answer most of them before I even start wroking on forging anything. Oh man I would want to spend a lil money and upgrade from that otherwise I might as well start digging a hole in the ground with half a used septic tank with some "solid fuel" left in it and use that as my forge XD thats awesome though lol. I have a question for you guys though...can you make a forge out of a solid cast iron wood stove? and how would you set it up to be "safe" and "clean" if you could? one item I was contemplating on for using as part of a forge :/ not too sure though http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/2/OutdoorLiving/TheOutdoorRoom/ExoticAccessories/PRD~0851083P/43-in.%2BChiminea.jsp

Unfortunately Im not fully liscenced to drive yet and am working every day except the weekends but I'm still looking for some group or individual near Pembroke or Deep River, Ontario (where I am right now) I'm trying to ask my dad if he knows anyone at work who does blacksmithing or metalworking as a hobby. He is a Branch Manager of A.E.C.L (Atomic Energy of Canada Limited) so has lots of connections. My g.f's parents would probably be willing to drive me anywhere around pembroke-Deep River area on the weekends if i cant find some blacksmith around the area here. I know a few good places in ottawa where I could start looking for some professionals (theres a whole street in Ottawa thats full of metalworking factories. I'm sure there would atleast be one blacksmith there or at the college) If that fails then I would probably have to visit Toronto sometime...they had some metalworking or blacksmithing course or something there with all the tools I'd ever dream of. I realised this after I just posted it lol....I was thinking to myself "wait a minute...if I'm going to do all that to it then I might as well be forging it anyways"...if I take that coating off its just going to really sit there and rust. But yes I'm trying to get that forge desighn down on paper and get all the peices for it (including something to use for an anvil). I have looked at many of the forge desighns and am amazed. I dont know which would be the cleanest and safest to use though (aside form one that I would have to purchase). I'm kind of excited just thinking about making it but at the same time i know nothings going to work out properly unless i find someone around here to help me lol. Good thinking...I never would have thought of that method until it was too late. Anyways I have to run back to work. I see I still have a lot of comments to catch up on lol I'll be back. Thank you guys for your time and expert opinions =)

thank you for both of your helpful comments. I'm going to try to reply to them both; I do have some mild-steel I can start out on =) lots of scraps cut off (but i dont just have scraps) from stock removal. I'm going to have to just use the torch though...cant set up a full forge yet. Allthough I was kinda thinking of using one of those torches for making a mini forge and learning a few basics with the scrap pieces...just the place where im living they dont want me making a forge on their property. (safety issues, cleaning issues as well as insurance issues)..im gonna have to do that at my old house where my parents live. Also I dont know if this will at all help make a "forge" but theres Plenty of cheap cast iron stoves on clearance at my work....I still dont know if i should trust that idea though. I am however, an employee at canadian tire and have an idea for making my own coal forge out of a few used bricks, a cast iron grill, some wet cement, a coal bucket (turn it upside down on the grill and drill a hole out of the top) and maybe a fan with some ventilation tubing to blow the air from underneath the hot coals up through the grate into a "chimnea" i bet this must seem rather silly though as I have not had any experience in making a forge. B.T.W. I only want to streighten those spring steel leaf springs...I dont want to work them right yet...I'm going to save them for when I have everything ready and when I think I get the hang of things. I just hate looking at them sitting beside me all bent and feeling forgotten. lol I have enough trouble stopping myself from burning the mild steel from stock removal because I sometimes just want to finish up and relax inside after a long day at work. (I usually work overtime 8-6 monday-friday and even get called in to work sometimes on the weekend because someone doesnt show) but no I do not want to mess up on any quality material I have and want to try and scrap as little as possible. Anyways, Thank you for your advice and concern. Hopefully I can ask around tomorrow and maybe find something apropriate I can use for a forging hammer and possibly an anvil....maybe I can flatten out the surface of a sledge hammer head or buy a large vice. That alone is going to be a challenge since I highly doubt anyone who works there has knowledge on forging steel (apart from maybe the Auto repair shop)

I've read up on a few sites on how to flatten these but i dont have the main tools that those sites mention. So I am asking for any manor of help or suggestions on how to properly and proportionatly flatten a leaf spring that I am going to be making some tools/knives and possibly a sword out of. I have an Oxygen-Acetylene torch that im thinking might be somehow helpful in doing most of the work as well as most basic equipment you'd find in a tool shed. I was also wondering on what I should flatten this steel against (another fairly thick flat sheet of steel with a higher melting point or a flat slab of cement?). I also wanted to mention that I havent tested this steel out yet to see if it really is quality spring steel (5160?) and that it has a black rust-proof shell coating which I'm assuming I can just power sand off or something. I do know that if I am going to use that torch that I am going to have to reheat treat the steel, temper it and oil quench it. I am a complete noob at this so any kind of input, advice or hint would be greatly appreciated. Mark B.

I thought that this link would be useful for a few people who want to find the information on finding an apropriate steel type for whatever their making. Heres it is; The Material Property Data Index of almost any kind of common steel/alloy you'd want to know about: A brief explanation and summary of basic steel types for those who might feel a little lost when trying to pick an appropriate steel for whatever job they are trying to do. One additional piece of information important to working with metals I found useful (hard to find the statistics of this on various metals though): Yield Strength and Yield Point: "The yield strength or yield point of a material is defined in engineering and materials science as the stress at which a material begins to deform plastically. Prior to the yield point the material will deform elastically and will return to its original shape when the applied stress is removed." (obviously a key feature in swords or making some sort of metallic ballista/crossbow ) and finally...the Replication of Wootz steel (which I found by reading a comment posted on another site) Feel free to correct any of this or provide additional sources of any type of information useful to blacksmithing. I hope this will help save a lot of people in wasting so many hours looking up information on metals.

Anyways in the future maybe just add suggestions to improve it rather than dissing the metal I just hope I can somehow change your aspect of this around to a slightly more positive outlook. :/ You still havent seen nothin yet but seriously don't comment if you really think this idea is rediculous because I dont give a rats xxx on your opinion! its my tools and my steel and I can do whatever the heck I want with them. If you notice I'm making quite a few amateur mistakes, I dont mind a simple gesture or point in the right direction but remember that I've got plenty of stuff left to grind and plenty of you guys around to give some advice on how to shape the blade so there is no point in scrapping this....just PLEASE FOR THE SAKE OF GOODNESS NO MORE CRITISIZING COMMENTS ABOUT STEEL TYPES!!! lol ...unless your going to supply me with the right type of steel then I might encourage it. lol

Thanks for helping me get started on this guys...I really appreciate the help.

you have to understand that I am just practicing with working on different materials first. Its all fun either way, its not supposed to do anything other than be shiney and look somewhat like a sword...I'm not so naieve to think that any kind of steel will make a great sword/cutting tool. Sometimes what I'm after is just the art of making the design/prototype or the fun in it...not actually making the final product. I think few people are actually acknowledging this. It's a desighn idea not xxxxxxx Rocket Science on the entire metallurgical properties of every single piece of steel that I buy. Seriously, as soon as I post something for an entirely different purpose it gets critisized. What ever happened to just screwin around with your tools having fun making random junk? It's kinda beyond retarded since almost no one can even understand, respect or even relate to "that behaviour". lol Yeah it's xxxx but you know what, I'ts more fun than reading people posting different facts about different steels that I allready know the use for. (about as fun as reading your debt records) I mean come on, when your explaining something to your best friends/co-workers or even your wives/girlfriends do you really sound like a bunch of "tools" (no offence) stating the entire facts about every single property of steel and brag about it int heir face because they dont know anything about the matter? lol

Just had to point something out here I forgot to mention...I havent fully finished grinding down certain areas to the right form....and that serrated bit...its actually the top of the blade lol it wont really be sharp but then again i might make that adjustment to it later on. The drawing with te pencil i put on there im still debating about because it would create (in my opinion) a weak spot in the blade (and the blade is allready kinda weak lol) As for the tip that hasnt fully been grinded to its proper form yet (allthough your almost looking at what it really is) The purpose for that tip is for there to be a heavy weight at the edge of the blade and your right its mostly meant for chopping but you will still be able to stab with it...just not as effectively lol There will also be a slight curve from allong the blades edge to that point at the bottom...its purpose will mostly be to create a "pulling" slice towards you. The edge on the bottom there will be more broader than most of the sword so that it will endure longer because thats the part that would otherwise dullen the most. As for the use of this type of sword...I'm no expert but it does bring a nice feeling when your holding the blade ninjato style and swing in an upwards motion...but Ironically it's most likely gonna be used for chopping wood or as a meat cleaver because its stainless and can go in the dishwasher when im done with it lol It would probably be a divers 2nd best friend in fending off sharks or a close encounter with pirates though lol oh and the thickness is just about 5mm thick (maybe just under 1/4" in imperial) it may have been cold-rolled slightly before i purchased the steel though so its "slightly" harder than most junk I'm really gonna hate cutting my 3rd project out of that almost 1/2 inch Tempered T1 steel though. I still cant figure out what type of T1 it is though (theres a few alloys called T1...one I think contains Titanium and some just used for tool Steel) they warned me not to hit anything too hard with it or it might shatter (sucky) lol its a xxxxxxxx huge rusty piece of scrap though but they sold it to me as scrap so i got a good deal on it

Something i just made out of a sheet of 304 stainless steel Try and ignore those grey lines i drew on there with a pencil...it was something i was thinking about doing but somewhat changed my mind about. It would have been even more unique looking but useless. lol I should be finished this whole blade in (hopefully at most) a month from now...but no promises

Yeah perhaps I should have bought a book and read a few things about forging before asking those questions. I have read a bit on pattern welding damascus Sweedish Damascus and wootz but I do not underestimate any artist/metallurgist/blacksmith/swordsmith or anyone for that matter. Actually, anyone who has the knowledge/skills/creativity and tools to work with steel I am pretty much inspired by...I try reasearching and reading what people write about Damascus/wootz or any type of steel ...from the making of it right to the characteristics of the steel and what its applications are. Thats saying a lot for me because I hardly ever read about anything else. The only thing that is frustrating is that it is hard to find a teacher or a course that will teach you about blacksmithing and metallurgy. To me it almost seems like blacksmithing/forging is a self taught profession now-days. I used to be in tool and die (I learned quite a bit about working with metal there) and I did quite well for a while... got a fairly high GPA without trying too hard. Then I kinda got myself involved in something else (this ex g.f) and screwed up the 2nd semester thinking I could finish 2 projects in less than 8 hours on the last day but the class ended up having a half day instead of a full day and oh man I was pissed. Anways...I allready well understand that in order for me to even pick up on smithing (practically) I would have to essentially own my own place (over $100,000). After that comes making/buying the forge and all the tools as well as the steel from the suppliers (easily atleast $10,000). Again it would be much simpler to either be in a class where you learn from watching a teacher or learn from a friend/relative/co-worker who allready does blacksmithing/forging/metalworking either as a profession or as a hobby. Unfortionately I dont know any of those people. lol However...reading those books seems to be the best start on understanding forging and metallurgy. I only hope that I run into some blacksmith somewhere or that I have a house by the time I finish reading those books. lol On a more positive note...( i think I said this once allready) not owning a forge doesnt stop me from making swords or stop my crativity. I have started to buy manufactured sheets of various steels and am starting to turn those flat sheets into blades. Allthough relative to everyone elses level here its probably more like cutting out a drawing I made on a piece of paper and sticking a popsicle stick on the end of it for a guard and a handle. It's still a pretty xxxx good looking piece of unfinished paper-popsicle stick though! lol But before I leave I just wanted to reply to a few comments: Yes...BUT...there is also another nutshell when it comes to those International multi-billionaire corporations; Allthough they have spent maybe even billions of $ on R&D the sad truth is that most international metal manufacturing corporations (let alone any company) are more interested in selling thier product at a reasonable price for their consumer rather than quality first. The reason why is because the people who buy that steel arent going to buy the most expensive indestructible steel on the market...they just want something thats cheap, effective and up to their standards that fits the project. If someone made a metal that was super light, flexible, tough and withstood the highest temperatures and pressures (just say in theory) no one would want it because the cost would be far too great for even the military to find a practical use for it. The other reason being...if they made a metal so high in quality no one would ever need replacement parts and that hurts the buisness of the steel manufacturers. As a result of this most of those corporations only do R&D on metals that could balance their consumers budget and help make a profit for both organizations. So in my opinion it will probably allways be up to the bladesmith to discover (or possibly rediscover) the ultimate metal alloy to create the ultimate blade and not those corporations. I appreciate the Input though. Sounds interesting...another thing I am going to have to look up and read about. yeah I hate feeling like the village idiot here lol I know failures are sometimes more important than the success...but I really need to learn

A few days ago I started thinking in theory about some type of new sword construction. It would consist of 3 types of steel; 1. a slightly soft, flexible inner core. (1075 possibly?) 2. a harder slightly flexible skin with 2 rows of round holes cut out slightly spaced out (I'd like to try using saw blade material or spring steel) 3. Round cut circles of hard, dense high CC alloy steel slightly smaller than the diameter of the holes previously cut out. (you guys probably know your metals better than I do and would know what to use or what not to use) Picturing it would be like this allong the edge of the steel Side View: Soft Core (metal # 1): ___________________________ ___________________________ Skin (Metal # 2 & 3): ___________________________ )_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_( )_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_((_))_( ___ where the )_( is metal # 2 and (_) is metal # 3 The skin of the metal would first be somehow attatched to the soft core to create a "T" where the top of the T is the skin and the middle is the softer core. Then the skin would be bent over so it would cover the sides of the core and then Metal # 3 somehow fixed into it's position. Then the metal could be forged and possibly folded evenly 2 times or more (once allong the center line of the blade and once front to back) so that you would have a thick layer of this skin in the middle of the blade as well as half of that thickness covering the outside. The reason why I think this would work is because the more flexible saw blade material would be able to flex in some segments relieving the stress off of the more dense, tough metal #2 while metal # 2 would hold its position and would not break because it is divided into different segments. And while that is going on metal #1 would possibly allow some kind of (having difficulty explaining this lol) transition between those 2 metals to further reduce the stress on the blade. also the blade would be folded in such a way so that the edge of the blade would be allong the diameter of metal # 3 making it able to hold an edge fairly well. so whats everyones opinion on this?

There are many interesting and unique methods to sword-steel making. I guess the question really is what secrets havent we unlocked yet and how can we combine all our knowledge to make the potentially best sword that we can. Right now all I have is a basic idea and enough money to take that idea, buy the steel thats allready been made by manufacturers and work away at it, grind it and polish it until that idea becomes a reality. Unfortunately I dont have the right tools or money to take those ideas to the next level or to make my own steel (which would be awesome). Eventually when I finish this stainless steel sword that I am working on (304 stainless steel I believe...which I know kinda sucks in terms of sharpness/toughness) I'll just upload it just to show everyone what type of swords I would be making if I had all the tools/equipment/money/time lol. I have a lot of ideas that keep popping out of my head and trust me, anything that I'm going to be making out of my drawings you wouldnt ever normally see in a store or even in a video game (and no the desighn doesnt necessairily compromise the strength in the blade...which i find a lot of people arent paying enough attention to these days). I even have a unique type of weapon all planned out that I'm planning on creating sometime before the year ends. It will be out of a fairly thick peice of stainless i bought (I know...again with the stainless lol) but I hope that my ideas drive some type of inspiration to people here or possibly even sword smiths in the future.

Hey, sorry it took so long to reply, I was out on vacation and my computer kept crashing everytime i tried to type something. Anyways thanks for replying to my question. I understand how some question can seem so rediculous at times, especially when you become really experienced at working with metal. It's just too bad that there arent enough people with the right tools around to hang out with and ask "what if" questions all the time. lol! but yes I know it would be very problematic to try it out let alone expensive and probably wouldnt work. I like that "Spray depositation" method though and that is something im going to have to look further into. Aside from all the other tools and equipment, all I really have in the garrage is a blow torch, a sledge hammer, a grinding wheel and a dremel. lol I would love to make a furnace but its not my garage XD I recently went out and bought some scrap T1 steel (its rusty and extremely hart to cut), 304 stainless steel and some plain mild steel for just cutting out a prototype sword. I know none of those are for making high quality cutting swords but its something to work on in the meantime. Its hard to even find 6150 or 52100 alloy steels so im pretty much dreaming lol. One of these days I'm going to save up and buy a whole bunch of machinary, make a slight profit from people who want to use that machinary and then try to blow it all on unsuccessful experiments lol

I dont really have any experience with metallurgy or blacksmithing ...(but I do have the equipment and the steel to cut out the shapes of blades)...but I had a question that I wish I could find out the answer to; What if you started out with a small fairly flat bar of... lets say 52100 Alloy Steel, coated with liquid 6150, air cooled it, coated it again with liquid 5160, again air-cooled it... and so on and so forth using different combinations of steels that are best suited for eachother until its satisfactory enough (maybe even 4150 or adding some type of ceramic powder to the mix ). Then later Folding out the steel a few times, forging the blade, annealing and heat-treating the blade then laminating it in silicide (or vise versa?)...maybe even cold rolling it somewhere in that big mess up there...could you somehow significantly improve the quality of the blade as opposed to just using traditional methods? I've never heard or read about anyone trying it this way before yet so many processes include "Dipping" metal into something that change the quality and characteristics of the steel.