Chris Waldon Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 I'm no swordsmith, but I was wondering if the fuller is forged into the blade or ground in later. I'm making a dagger and considering trying to fuller it. (if that can indeed be used as a verb) How exactly does one go about it? Thanks in advance, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 It can indeed be used as a verb. It is most often forged into the blade but can be ground too. A young fellow that used my forge and anvil for a while had a nifty little tool that was made of an old drill press vise that had an adjustable top and bottom fuller on it to accommodate different width of blades. The bottom fuller was stationary on the slide and the top fuller was sprung to go up and down. He would heat the blade to forging temp and then move it along under the fullers till he had it to the depth he wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waldon Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 is there any way to make one without specialized equipment. I have an anvil and a cross-pein hammer. Can it be done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 sure just harder work... Use a round stock section as a bottom fuller, nothing special to buy, just make do with what you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinlander Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 Fullering a blade was done with three tools. First (tool no. 1) is a round topped hardy or similar tool that would form one side of the blade groove. It is affixed to the anvil or vise with the round side up. A half to three quarter inch rod would suffice for the round. The other two tools are a good hammer and a fullering tool that is identical to the tool that forms the bottom groove. Contrary to popular belief, nearly all old day blacksmiths had apprentices and assistants to help them. The assistant would run the forge bellows and draw the blade out of the fire when called by the blacksmith. The smith would then operate the fullering hammer and tool as the assistant drew the blade across tool no. 1 and alternately flipped the blade to assure symmetry in grooving both sides. This was usually the final step in blade forging and occurred after the blade was forged and edged. Keep in mind that there are some forging techniques that simply take two people. You can beat yourself all day trying to do something that can usually be done in a few minutes when you have a helper. And most neighborhoods are full of kids that want to learn exciting new things and who can be taught to hold tongs still while you strike the work piece. With some practice you can do it and teach a traditional skill to someone else. A bit of trivia for all of you. The groove we are discussing is called a "blood groove." Does anyone know why such a groove was used in swords and daggers with wide blades? Good luck. Vinlanderyocw@yeoldecustomwood.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waldon Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 The "blood groove"s purpose was to lighten and strengthen the blade, like an I-beam gets it's strength from it's shape. Thank you all for your excellent information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 (edited) All a fuller is a negative of the shape you want hammered into a piece of steel to the depth you want. If the negative shape is mostly concave then it is usually called a swage. If the negative shape is mostly convex then it is usually called a fuller. Fullering is in general used to refer to the process of creating a reduced cross sectional area in the stock you are working. You may fuller one side or both side. Bottom fullers are, well, on the bottom resting on the anvil or other holding device and top fullers are usually struck by the hammer to pricely place the indentation you are creating. So without special equipment, with nothing but hammer and anvil, vice and fire. You didn't say exactly where you want to place the fullered area. I can envision several ways one might fuller a dagger. If down the mid line for instance, then a top and bottom fuller might be used. I would start with a narrow thickness but relatively rather hemispherical edged defined mild steel chisel shaped fuller and lightly define the area I wanted to fuller on both sides. The side on the anvil will cool rapidly and so help prevent the hammering on one side to mess up the marking on the topside. After doing this a couple of times so that you are about 2/3 the depth you want, then you will need to make the bottom and top fullers. See the thread discussion http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/making-tools-my-hardy-hole-12897/ There are several different simple fullers that can be made out of mild steel, found steel round bar that will do a first tool. I picture using and top and bottom spring fuller length wise down the blade to make your fullered line. Having made the fuller you want, slip your blade into the the fuller length wise and firmly but not agressively drive the fuller into the blade with two or three blows, turn over do again and inspect your work. Tools you will have to make one fullering chisel, one top and bottem spring fuller. Material needed probably 6 inches of 1/2 round and what ever it takes to make he spring fuller of the diameter of you fullered line. See the above citation for proportions. Edited July 15, 2009 by Charlotte spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waldon Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 I wanted to fuller the Center line of the dagger. I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "steel chisel shaped fuller" To "lightly define the area I want to fuller on both sides" do I run said chisel-thing up and down the blade while hot? Also, I'm not sure what your paragraph that starts with: "having made the fuller you want..." means. Do you mean to take the upper spring fuller and to drive it down along the length of the fuller you have made on both sides? also, how exactly is this used? : http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/attachments/f7/15191d1245986464-making-tools-my-hardy-hole-fuller4.jpg is this just the bottom of the set? do you have a picture of the top part if it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/atta...le-fuller4.jpg The tool is both top and bottom fuller. The piece to be fullered is placed between the open ends and forged hot to create a top and bottom groove. Chisel shaped fuller? Think of a cold chisel with the edge broken off and where the edge was rounded to a shape resembling half a cylinder where the the edge should be. Yes fullering is generaly done hot. When I say lightly, I mean a firm stroke but with close attention to the direction and location of the impression. A narrow tool will penetrate quickly so you need be a little careful. The groove created will help you locate the top and bottom fuller when you make the final groove. Yes I mean place the the blade in the tool and forge along the length to create the "blood groove" lightening fuller on the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waldon Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 Do I want the two ends of the fuller hardie to be equal length? (end the same place if you draw a line perpendicular to the face of the anvil.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 There are many ways to make a fuller: you can grind it in with a belt grinder, you can scrape it in with a sen, you can mill it in with a mill (horizontal or vertical), you can file it in, or you can forge it in. Note that many times you will use a number of these methods together, eg: rough forge, then use the the sen then grind with the belt grinder to finish. One method is not necessarily better than another and if you are working pattern welded materials you very well may choose stock removal over forging so as not to mess up the patterning. As to helpers in the smithy, well traditionally there would be half a dozen ranging from day labor/new apprentices doing grunt work to journeyman smiths working on their own or helping with complex work done by the master smith. We think of a smith being "alone" because the 'recent' memories of smithing were of it's passing days when most smiths were coasting downhill as factory made stuff was taking over and they could not afford the labour. But look at the photos of blacksmith shops 100 years ago, you almost always see a groups of people posing at the smithy door! I tell folks that having a single person working in a smithy is just like having only the surgeon in an operating room today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Waldon Posted July 15, 2009 Author Share Posted July 15, 2009 What exactly is a sen? and How would you file it in? I can't think of a way to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 15, 2009 Share Posted July 15, 2009 A sen is a drawknife for metal. Japanese term though the tool existed in Europe as well. *carefully*! (Use a curved or a round file) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 The "blood groove"s purpose was to lighten and strengthen the blade, like an I-beam gets it's strength from it's shape. Thank you all for your excellent information. i thought it was to allow the blade to be removed after stabbing .... it allowed air to enter the wound as the blade is withdrawn so a vacuum wont form.....or so i heard :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 A fuller is a rounded or beveled groove or slot in the flat side of a blade (e.g. a sword, knife, or bayonet). Contrary to popular belief, the term "blood groove" is a misnomer: the fuller was not designed to allow blood to flow from a stabbed person. A fuller is actually used to strengthen and/or lighten the blade, much in the way that an I-beam shape lends strength to a steel rod. In this respect, its effects are conclusively proven (i.e. removing metal from a blade is guaranteed to make it lighter). Many blades use fullers, even when they are so short that the physical effect is negligible. Physics The basic design principle is that bending causes more stress in material near the edge or back of the blade than material in the middle, due to leverage. The diagram at right shows stress distribution in an ideal blade with a rectangular section, with only a small amount of shear stress present at the neutral axis. Fullers remove material from near this neutral axis, which is closer to the blade's spine if only one edge is sharpened (see photo above). This yields stiffer blades of a given weight, or lighter blades of a given stiffness. The same principle is taken to an extreme in the I-shaped cross sections of most steel beams. Some even contend that this concept was borrowed into architecture from weapons design. Japanese blades In Japanese bladesmithing, fullers have a rich tradition and terminology, enough that there are separate terminologies for the top (hi, usually pronounced as bi when used as a successive word) and bottom (tome) ends of the feature. A listing follows: Hi Bo-bi: A continuous straight groove of notable width, known as katana-bi on tanto. With soe-bi, a secondary narrow groove follows the inner straight length of the main one. With tsure-bi, the secondary is similar but continues beyond the straight length. Futasuji-bi: Two parallel grooves. Shobu-bi: A groove shaped like the leaf of an iris plant. Naginata-bi: A miniature bo-bi whose top is oriented opposite from the blade's, and usually accompanied by a soe-bi. Seen primarily on naginatas. Kuichigai-bi: Two thin grooves that run the top half of the blade; the bottom half is denoted by the outer groove stopping halfway while the inner one expands to fill the width. Koshi-bi: A short rounded-top groove found near the bottom of a blade, near to the tang. Tome Kaki-toshi: The groove runs all the way down to the end of the tang. Kaki-nagashi: The groove tapers to a pointed end halfway down the tang. Kaku-dome: The groove stops as a square end within 3 cm of the tang's upper end. Maru-dome: Similar to the kaku, except with a rounded-end. The kukri The Nepali kukri has a terminology of its own, including the "aunlo bal" (finger of strength/force/energy), a relatively deep and narrow fuller near the spine of the blade, which runs (at most) between the handle and the corner of the blade, and the "chirra", which may refer either to shallow fullers in the belly of the blade or a hollow grind of the edge, and of which two or three may be used on each side of the blade. Wikipedia is a great source of information. When ever I want to know if what I'm told is right I look it up here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m16a2soldier Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 i thought it was to allow the blade to be removed after stabbing .... it allowed air to enter the wound as the blade is withdrawn so a vacuum wont form.....or so i heard :confused: actually the purpose of the blood groove is a bit darker. a plain blade if left in the wound acts as a sort of plug. the blood groove is meant to eliminate that plug and allow the blood the flow. This results in a added lethality to a blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Steinkirchner Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) ahhh, very good grass hoppah. you have learned well the way of pop culture, and urban legend... sorry,i can get that way sometimes...not your fault. the truth in usually less exciting, and doesn't get spread around as easily. it is, as others here have said, to lighten the blade without any appreciable loss in strength. Also we must remember that in the times that steel was very expensive and hard to come by, a fuller that was forged in would make a 1 inch wide blade into, maybe a 1.5 inch wide blade without needing more material. Edited September 21, 2009 by youngsmith 229 put in and but didn't need it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheremee Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 The blood groove was supposedly put in place to inhibit the suction of a human body from holding the blade in the body. The groove allowed air in to break the suction. Widening and strengthening the blade is a more probably truth, but both ideas are plausible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oups two profiles Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 In Jim Hrisoulas's book the Complete Bladesmith he says "Fullering the blade, or creating longitudinal grooves along the blade, servers two main purposes: it lightens the blade while making it wider without sacrificing cross-section strength, and allows for a more flexible blade.The fullers were neither invented for the blood to run down nor to prevent the suction of a body binding the blade in the case of a stab. These are old wives' takes based on fantasy not fact." I hope it was ok that I posted that excerpt. It really is a great book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 We have plain butchers knives we use to kill pigs with. They are used to stab the pig after it is shot with a pea rifle. I have never had one stick in the wound because it does not have a fuller groove. Old wives tail...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted November 9, 2009 Share Posted November 9, 2009 (edited) Hello: Since I was mentioned.. There is no evidience that there is any "suction" pre sey in a wound in flesh. Fullers were placed into blade to: 1: Lighten the mass weight while maintaining a degree of stiffness vs weight ratio, example: an "I" beam. By using "two" (or more) "Centre Spines" you increase the stiffness in a blade..which can be illustrated by putting a crease in a piece of paper..it is much stiffer than an uncreased one..same with steel. 2: Conserve material..When you forge a fuller in you will actually widen the blade, thereby making a wider blade with the same material volume with what you started with. There are other reasons as well, but these are the two Now you can forge them in...using top/bottom tooling and then clean them up by hand or you can scrape them in.. I have attached photos of a fuller scraper that I whipped up for my 4th book..It requires no "machine work" and can be put together with a 1/4 x 20 tap, a hand drill and a hacksaw. It uses HSS lathe bits as a cutter, and these can be shaped to whatever profile you wish. The photos should be pretty much self-explanatory but is anyone has any questions by all means feel free to ask... JPH Edited November 11, 2009 by mod07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAiN Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 I watched a documentary once on swords and apparently when the blood groove is forged in with a top and bottom fuller it actually compacts the steel and gives it a tighter grain structure.... they where saying if the blood groove is machined in, it leaves that part with the same type of grain structure as the rest of the blade and therefore makes it weaker because that part is now thinner than the rest of the blade.... when it's properly forged in it makes it stronger because the steel along the fuller line is slightly harder from being compressed a little. it kind of makes sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 On bronze swords that were cold worked to finish that grain refinement may have added strength and hardness, but the grain refinement from work is removed in heat treat on steel, or any metal that gets heated. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 You do not get "grain refinement" working cold. You get work hardening. Heating a piece after work hardening can cause grain refinement through renucleation in areas of high amounts of dislocations. Modern steels are nice in that we can refine the grain by thermo cycling and do not need to try to do it by work hardening followed by a heat cycle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLAiN Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 On bronze swords that were cold worked to finish that grain refinement may have added strength and hardness, but the grain refinement from work is removed in heat treat on steel, or any metal that gets heated. Phil well that's what I had tossing and turning in my head too.... after the steel has been normalized before heat treatment, your right, it shouldn't have a tighter grain structure.... It was still an interesting Doco, and the guy that was making the sword was not an amateur by any standards.... So I don't really know what to think on that one.... it makes an interesting argument though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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