Fuller

[pkrankow]

Thank you ThomasPowers for getting where I was trying to go.
Phil

[basher]

I watched a documentary once on swords and apparently when the blood groove is forged in with a top and bottom fuller it actually compacts the steel and gives it a tighter grain structure.... they where saying if the blood groove is machined in, it leaves that part with the same type of grain structure as the rest of the blade and therefore makes it weaker because that part is now thinner than the rest of the blade....

when it's properly forged in it makes it stronger because the steel along the fuller line is slightly harder from being compressed a little.

it kind of makes sense to me.

There is still a lot of romance involved in the making of swords and also a lot of misinformation , the metallurgy of steel is still relatively modern compared to old fashioned ideas about steel and how to work it .
Steel is a solid you can not compress it ,at any given temperature it has a given density you can only squidge it around .
there would be no advantage or disadvantage in forging a fuller or grinding one as far as material strength is concerned .
There may be advantages in getting width into a blade (using lass stock) and advantages in getting an authentic pattern in a pattern welded blade (removing less material) .
All the best Owen

[hicks]

hey ho,, just thought id mention that i recently observed a man putting a shallow fuller into an anglo saxon blade by scraping a a farriers rasp toward him while the blade was held in a g clamp,, the rasp had cuts into the edges to scrath the fuller out and an edge on the cut out section to followe the edges of the blade, it almost looked as he scratched it in line by line then smoothed with sandpaper afterward,,

i would have thought if the blade is pattern welded then removing cold would be the best idea to bring out a stronger pattern, but would you do it after the blade is hardened and tempered or before?? could it possibly help prevent any warping?

[ThomasPowers]

Well on an Anglo Saxon blade the area with a fuller would low carbon and only the edge would end up hardened.

However using modern materials I would work the fuller while the blade is soft if at all possible. If not look into a carbide scraper---perhaps a metal lathe tool held in a hand powered holder---differential hardening or tempering would also help!

[Steve Sells]

Hello:
<snip..

I have attached photos of a fuller scraper that I whipped up for my 4th book..It requires no "machine work" and can be put together with a 1/4 x 20 tap, a hand drill and a hacksaw. It uses HSS lathe bits as a cutter, and these can be shaped to whatever profile you wish.

The photos should be pretty much self-explanatory but is anyone has any questions by all means feel free to ask...

JPH

this makes a lot of SEN-ce jim ;)

[Geoff]

I always thought that the fuller was to make the blade lighter and yet still give strength. Sort of like an I beam.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Dodge]

Let us recap:

A bit of trivia for all of you. The groove we are discussing is called a "blood groove." Does anyone know why such a groove was used in swords and daggers with wide blades?

Good luck.

Vinlander
yocw@yeoldecustomwood.com

The "blood groove"s purpose was to lighten and strengthen the blade, like an I-beam gets it's strength from it's shape. Thank you all for your excellent information.

i thought it was to allow the blade to be removed after stabbing .... it allowed air to enter the wound as the blade is withdrawn so a vacuum wont form.....or so i heard :confused:

Contrary to popular belief, the term "blood groove" is a misnomer: the fuller was not designed to allow blood to flow from a stabbed person. A fuller is actually used to strengthen and/or lighten the blade, much in the way that an I-beam shape lends strength to a steel rod.

actually the purpose of the blood groove is a bit darker. a plain blade if left in the wound acts as a sort of plug. the blood groove is meant to eliminate that plug and allow the blood the flow. This results in a added lethality to a blade

(Mod note the above statement is false, please read further)

ahhh, very good grass hoppah. you have learned well the way of pop culture, and urban legend... sorry,i can get that way sometimes...not your fault. the truth in usually less exciting, and doesn't get spread around as easily. it is, as others here have said, to lighten the blade without any appreciable loss in strength. Also we must remember that in the times that steel was very expensive and hard to come by, a fuller that was forged in would make a 1 inch wide blade into, maybe a 1.5 inch wide blade without needing more material.

In Jim Hrisoulas's book the Complete Bladesmith he says

"Fullering the blade, or creating longitudinal grooves along the blade, servers two main purposes: it lightens the blade while making it wider without sacrificing cross-section strength, and allows for a more flexible blade.The fullers were neither invented for the blood to run down nor to prevent the suction of a body binding the blade in the case of a stab. These are old wives' takes based on fantasy not fact."

I hope it was ok that I posted that excerpt. It really is a great book.

I always thought that the fuller was to make the blade lighter and yet still give strength. Sort of like an I beam.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps we can cease to flog this poor dead horse :D

[MattBower]

Wait, you can't end it here! I absolutely must offer an opinion without first reading any of the stuff that's already been written in this thread! :lol:

[Charles R. Stevens]

I think the idea of grain structure improvement by forging comes from wrought iron that has a regiment wood like grain and definitely benefits from being forged. Such as the grain going around a not hole in a wooden plank. As pointed out modern steel is homogeneous and dosen't give a hoot if it is forged or machined. But forging has advantages. It conserves material and has greater aesthetic value.