jeremy k Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Mike - As others have said these are a very dangerous piece of equipement when used by those that do not have an understanding of them. I believe that is also the reason there's not a lot of information readily available online as to "exactly" how to build one - It's a huge Liability issue. Do not get mad at those that are triing to explain that to you, it is for you own safety. There are plenty of blacksmiths that can make beautiful damascus/layered steel without using a press. Have you actually forgewelded some damascus/layered steel by hand? If you have and have that down so it works reliably then move toward a press, If not I would suggest learning forgewelding by hand, as a press is not needed. - JK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Ok mike, Ill give you one piece of information that you can use here. If you know as much about all the types of welding as you say im sure you can do the calcs needed for a satisfactory full pen weld to give the figures,. Our big forging presses have a frame loading of 4tonsq". Thats low. You can probably double that figure and still be on the safe side. small elastic circuit on the big presses. Cant help ya any more than that. If you dont know what it means and cant calc it out, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Of course it isn't making sense to you Mike. YOU wanted to make a press and were asked if you know how to weld well enough to do it safely. You answered with a boast list of joining processes you read somewhere and think makes you sound like you know what you're talking about. But a simple straight forward question STILL doesn't make any sense to you. That's because you don't know enough and are unwilling to listen to good advice. Ask questions by the truckload sure but pay attention to the answers? No. When you're old enough I suggest taking a class or two. Till then dream on. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 3, 2009 Author Share Posted June 3, 2009 Of course it isn't making sense to you Mike. YOU wanted to make a press and were asked if you know how to weld well enough to do it safely. You answered with a boast list of joining processes you read somewhere and think makes you sound like you know what you're talking about. But a simple straight forward question STILL doesn't make any sense to you. That's because you don't know enough and are unwilling to listen to good advice. Ask questions by the truckload sure but pay attention to the answers? No. When you're old enough I suggest taking a class or two. Till then dream on. Frosty you down know anything about me Frosty so dont all of a sudden think that i dont know welding because im half way through a light engneeringblacksmithing course and im one of the best welders there if you dont believe me then ill do some welds today and ill take a pic just to show you that i can weld,ive already got a welding qualification so DONT presume that im talking XXXXXx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) Mike - With all due respect - You've started a couple threads on presses - that's all fine. When people read your posts, we have to wonder, as you post it apears that you what info on building a press for real dirt cheap. I'd like to do that also. Unfortunately for the most part that is not readily done without having some good luck and connections to get mat'ls for a proper setup that will handle the tonnage for forging. I have priced the components for a 25ton press and even getting some parts from surplus dealers, it will still cost about $1,000.00 - $1,500.00 just for the mechanical parts - not including the steel and my labor and mat'ls to put it all together. This is a major investment, even if you can get a deal on the parts. Please don't take this lightly - not knowing anything about presses before making and using one is dangerous. Now you say your in an engineering class... with that resource of info from your instructor and books and maybe some more research - you can find the answers to your questions that you've posted here. It's hard to give you information if it sounds as if youv'e never seen one/operated one/or know what they do. Ask your insructor to help you with it and maybe it can be your class project?? - JK Edited June 4, 2009 by jeremy k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Right. Here's an easy question so you can show me and everybody else you aren't just blowing smoke. What process you're going to use to weld up your press frame? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Mike - With all due respect - You've started a couple threads on presses - that's all fine. When people read your posts, we have to wonder, as you post it apears that you what info on building a press for real dirt cheap. I'd like to do that also. Unfortunately for the most part that is not readily done without having some good luck and connections to get mat'ls for a proper setup that will handle the tonnage for forging. I have priced the components for a 25ton press and even getting some parts from surplus dealers, it will still cost about $1,000.00 - $1,500.00 just for the mechanical parts - not including the steel and my labor and mat'ls to put it all together. This is a major investment, even if you can get a deal on the parts. Please don't take this lightly - not knowing anything about presses before making and using one is dangerous. Now you say your in an engineering class... with that resource of info from your instructor and books and maybe some more research - you can find the answers to your questions that you've posted here. It's hard to give you information if it sounds as if youv'e never seen one/operated one/or know what they do. Ask your insructor to help you with it and maybe it can be your class project?? - JK i spoke to Jack my instructor and he wants me to figure it out my self.and thats why i came here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 (edited) Right. Here's an easy question so you can show me and everybody else you aren't just blowing smoke. What process you're going to use to weld up your press frame? Frosty Can you explain to me what you mean?well if im thinking of what you are then ok here it is, im gana measure all the parts trice to make sure they are at the right length then im gana line all the pieces up how they should be one by one and then im gana use the wire feed to tack the pieces together and once its all in the shape it should be im gana mesure each side to make sure its the equal size, and once im totally sure that its all alineing up and correctly put together then im gana weld it up,once the press is all welded up and in the shape i want it to be im gana put brackets on all the corners(to make it extra strong)and tack them in place and then weld them. Is that enough for you?or do you want more? Edited June 4, 2009 by Damascus Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 No, that's quite enough to tell us just how much you know. The question has a one word answer. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Ive been welding long enough, and badly enough that if I was making a press frame I would use the process known as 'sub-con' :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 4, 2009 Author Share Posted June 4, 2009 Right well you people call it that and we just do it so New Zealand is oviously different than america or where ever your from.i dont need to know fansy words like sub-con to weld properly No, that's quite enough to tell us just how much you know. The question has a one word answer. Frosty And?how does this tell you that im not a good enough welder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 Right well you people call it that and we just do it so New Zealand is oviously different than america or where ever your from.i dont need to know fansy words like sub-con to weld properly 'Sub-con' is short for 'sub-contract', as in 'pay a professional weldor to do a professional welding job' -- John acknowledges that his welding capabilities are not up to scratch for such an application as a weld failure when it's under stress it's basically a bomb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 i believe as you stated in post # 34- "your instructor wanted you to figure it out, that's why you came here"sounds to me that you want someone to do your home work..and you refuse to listen/heed advice and or warnings. may i suggest; go ahead and build it,if it holds togather well done, if it dosen't maybe you'll only hurt yourself. as far as i'm concerned New Zealand is a long ways away from West Texas so i'll be safe any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 I remember when I built up my rolling mill, I pre-set the angles and connections with 1/4-20 bolts to keep them aligned. With small bolts acting as pivots they can be adjusted, rather than a tac weld. Some of the plate I used was 1 inch thick. When it was all square I borrowed a diesel powered 400 amp Lincoln from work. Before I touched my mill, I welded a few 1 inch scraps, then after cooling, I cut it up on the band saw to inspect my welds since I don't have an Xray at home. Then I welded the mill, because I am not a welder, I am Electrician. Having said that, even with my sacrificial tests being 100%, I will Sub-Con my Press frame. My mill has about only 2 to 3 ton of pressure and it has held up fine. A press at 40 to 50 ton I want to make sure its safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 4, 2009 Share Posted June 4, 2009 And?how does this tell you that im not a good enough welder You had to make up a story instead of just answering one of if not THE most basic welding question. Maybe you've played with a welder, probably not, I don't know. What I do know is you either are not taking a class involving welding or you don't pay any attention. My guess is the former, I can't imagine an instructor letting you mess around in a shop class if your behavior there is anything like it is here. In a class you have to learn the names of the things you will use and do BEFORE you using/doing them. And yes I checked, "process" means exactly the same thing in NZ as here. So, that's it one simple honest question and you're caught out. AGAIN. Don't get me wrong, we're blacksmiths, we LIKE tall tales so long as they're not insultingly obviously boastful BS. It's like you think there's something wrong with being a kid and not knowing something. Everybody starts out as a know nothing kid but we learn. Unfortunately a person who can't or won't admit they don't know something will never learn. It's actually quite sad Mike, you might be a decent enough kid but if you can't get past this little story telling trait you aren't going to go very far. I realize there are probably plenty of parents out there either laughing or getting ticked off at me for engaging you like this. I know my Mother would be laughing if she read any of this, Dad would try one of his "fatherly" talks but the message would be the same. I was a story teller as a kid too. Still am in fact, I just don't try BSing knowledgeable people from a position of ignorance. I also learned how much people resent being lied to unless you let them know at some point it's just a story with a punchline, message or something that does not involve fooling them. Nobody and I mean NOBODY likes being fooled. It's especially insulting when you are as bad at fooling people as you are, sooner than later you find yourself without friends willing to trust anything you say. That's a VERY lonely place. What I hope is you actually ARE as young as you sound, if so there's a good chance someone can straighten you out. I don't think there's much I can do for you. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 Ok i get where you coming from and im sorry if i put out an incorrect message to you but i seriously am being taught all these joining processes,im not the best welder in the world but im also not the worst,i believe my welding skills are good enough for me to start this task of making a press,and as for my tutor wanting me to figure it out myself what he meant was that i mustnt ask him 4 help and that i must go to other people on internet or in person to get help on this task. Ps: im 18 but i have ADHD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 I also have ADHD and OCD to boot, but in something like this press, "i believe my welding skills are good enough" will not work. As others have stated you are talking about deadly pressures here. As far as ADHD and OCD (obsessive compulsive), you need to slow down. I find it best to take out my energy with sketches and drawing plans of projects LONG before starting, then PACE myself. Never set yourself to a timeline for a project or you will be taking shortcuts or not doing your BEST work. Work out each step of a project in your mind, and write them down if you have to. Delve into material specs, for strength, and learn the technical aspects of things, not just the how, but the why. As far as trying to BS people on here, don't even try, they are some of the sharpest in the field of metal working in the world, and you will get caught. As Frosty eluded to, "you can't BS a BS'er". Be honest, if you don't know or can't do something admit it, we are glad to help. But for God's sake when someone posts something READ IT, before replying. I would put off this press until you have more confidence in your welding and fab skills, of find someone who IS a good fabricator weldor to help. There are many people who don't mind welding, but hate the prep and cleanup of finished welds. You could do that, and learn what the basis for a good weld is, starting with clean prepared stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 5, 2009 Author Share Posted June 5, 2009 You know what?your right i must go slow and prepare it over a long time,in fact after i read ur post i realized that i dont haveenough materials to built it,im confident enuogh to do this task but i havent planned it out on paper or in my head and to top it all i dont even have 90% of the materials needed, i think ill take your advise and leave it for when ive planned it out more,im sorry but i just have a problem where if i see something i like and i know i can build it, i start asking questions and start to get all exited about making the object,and all the excitement floods my mind and takes away all the main parts i need to know,and i end up with something like this.please guys in the future if i ask you something about biulding something please ask me if i have planned it all out and if i have all the right materials and even ask 4 a pic of them,if you want to that is,any way thanx 4 all the help and good direction. Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnr Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Spent the last 56 years "enjoying "ADHD Coping skills take working on. Finnr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 Thank you Mike, that was refreshing. We all have things to overcome and I'm certainly no exception. A while ago I asked if you had a learning disability and got no reply. The offer I made then still stands. There's nothing I like better than helping someone but I have to know it's going to be worth the effort. I'm not saying I have to know the person has to be worth it. I'm saying MY effort has to be. If it's something I can't help with I'd rather someone else with the right technique take over. Anyway, here are a couple tricks I use to slow my mind down so I can think things through clearly. If it's something intense my mind can get going so fast and hard I end up going in circles or shooting off on tangents. One thing I do is take a walk, a good fast walk helps disconnect the conscious mind and let my sub-conscious chew things over. After a bit I start seeing the pictures I can watch them work, fail, etc. Any repetitive task that REQUIRES at least part of your mind to stay focused works but walking is best for me. I'm sure it's the whole tripping and falling down if I don't watch where I'm going aspect that does it for me. I've been dealing with this my whole life, I can't write, read, talk or do anything fast enough to get it down before the thought has been replaced by another. I learned to work around it, learned to hold onto the important parts, learned to shrug off the distractions. It's like learning any skill, it's knowledge and practice. Just don't give up, never give up. Once you've learned to juggle well enough, keeping complex things straight and in focus is easier than simple things. There are enough things the stray thoughts don't have room to get in and go bug someone else. Another trick I use to help keep things straight, force me to slow down and keep things coherent is breaking my writing into paragraphs with line breaks rather than tabbed spaces. It helps me keep things in discrete pieces, helps edit and makes what I say more understandable. (I hope;)) Again, thanks Mike. For the first time I have the feeling I'm talking to the real you and I appreciate it. It's a good thing. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnptc Posted June 5, 2009 Share Posted June 5, 2009 very nicely worded frosty !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 No i must thanx you 4 leading me in the true direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 No i must thanx you 4 leading me in the true direction. Aw Man, I've shed enough tears the last couple days and now I'm all misty eyed again. Hows this, if after reading a post a couple times you still don't understand it, just say so and we'll go over it line by line if necessary. Okay? Welcome to the black booger gang. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damascus Mike Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 haha thanx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dawitt Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 hello, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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