Small Charcoal forge - indoors

[MrCairney]

Hi everyone,

I'm in the process of setting up my cellar with a small charcoal bucket forge for bladesmithing. I have a question about safety though.

What are the real world CO risks with this setup? My idea is to light the forge outdoors and then transport it into the cellar where the rest of my set up is. I'm going to invest in a CO alarm but I've never really been told, or read anything by experienced blacksmiths that this is a really bad idea.

My cellar isn't huge but is of stone construction, and aside from a grill to the outdoors doesn't have a window.

Am I being over cautious? I don't want to make a pink corpse after the first burn!

[GRiley904]

it's all about ventilation where there is fire there is carbon dioxide you gotta get it out of there maybe build a small chimney type deal on it, with a fan directing it outside, should do the trick

Mod addition: IF you want to kill yourself and your family go ahead. this is a very BAD IDEA

[David Einhorn]

Without sufficient ventilation, a given space has a limited amount of oxygen. People have been known to die from having a kerosine heater in a space without sufficient access to oxygen/ventilation. If I remember correctly people in house fires usually overcome by carbon dioxide before dying in the house fire.

There is probably more than one fireman on this forum that can clarify the issue.

[MrCairney]

Thanks guys, this is exactly the reason I'm planning ahead. A small flexible flue might be worth designing. At a push I could bolster out a bit of a hole in the wall vent (it's one of those brick grills with holes in) to run the pipe out with perhaps a fan at the bottom on the stairs to keeping the air flowing.

But please keep the suggestions coming

[macbruce]

Dave & GR, Carbon dioxide??.........Shouldn't carbon monoxide be the big worry here? Every bag of charcoal has warnings about burning indoors for this reason...

[MrCairney]

Yes, CO would be my main concern as you don't know until you hit the floor. I WILL be purchasing a CO alarm as a matter of course, along with fire extinguishing kit. I'm sure you all know the bucket forge, but just in case you don't here's the kinda size we're talking about:

[Fe-Wood]

Be really careful with that! You'll need inflow as well as outflow. I would consider making it a positive pressure system, mean more outside air being forced into the space than being sucked out by the flu. With a variable speed fan system you can find a good balance I would think. From my understanding CO is heavy and will accumulate on the ground and fill up the space.

A few years back I was making Christmas Gifts and running my generator in my 2500 sq. ft. shop. I thought the building had enough air flow to not make air quality and issue. Back then, when the wind was blowing, it would move the flame on a match. Boy, was I wrong!!!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes, CO is dangerous, it has an affinity for the hemoglobin in our bload that is 16 times that of oxygen. That said, and as pointed out already, ventilation is going to be key, usually a 12" diameter flue pipe is used, but a range hood with a fan and a 6-8 inch fan may serfice. I'd check out the setup for indoor charcoal grills, your local building codes may cover the required CFM ventilation.
Btw, place the CO detectors near the flore.

[pkrankow]

CO poisoning at least has some indicators. General flue-like body aches, irritability, headaches... The hard part is having your mental capacity diminished AND realizing that you may have poisoned yourself.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/carbon_monoxide_poisoning/article_em.htm

If you do not have a flue for the smoke removal, don't even consider this. You need both removal of bad air and introduction of good air.

Phil

[doc]

I think you may have more to worry about than CO2 ! As if that isn't enough..... That bucket looks to be galvanized..? and your liner on top looks to be aluminum?.
If my guesses are correct. You should be just as concerned about ZINC fumes and the aluminum melting all over when you reach true forging temps as you are about asphyxiation.

[MrCairney]

Hi Doc, not quite right, the lining is a vermiculate / fire clay / ash / sand cement. The lining of my bucket is 2 inches of ceramic fibre coated with fire cement to at least remove the risk of getting cancer to the mix!

Thanks for all your advice. I'm looking into the logistics of adding a flue.

[Marksnagel]

A fireman here.
Any solid fuel fire inside of a dwelling is asking for trouble. As already stated, not only will life threatening gasses be created but oxygen will be used up hence the positive pressure references above. These gasses may also travel to other areas of your house.
During a hurricane here a few years back a fellow in his 40's had a gas generator in his carport outside. The fumes found their way into the house and he was found by his girlfriend the next day. She now has a new breathing boyfriend. There are so many factors to consider. Probably the best advice I can give is for you to contact a local chimney service, someone that installs woodstoves and the like. They will have the knowledge to get you started on ventilation. Remember that fire codes are there for a reason. More than one house/shop has burnt down due to people trying to take the easy road. I'm not implying that you will be dangerous to yourself and others but just trying to offer my 2 cents worth.
The face that you are seeking advice is a good sign.

Mark <><

[MrCairney]

Can't argue with that Mike!

Am I right in thinking that it's the fuel that is the bump in the road here? In fine weather I've no trouble forging outside in my backyard, my kit is all very portable. However, as the winter arrives it would be nice to have shelter.

So, how about a comprise? I wasn't going to go for a gas firer since I think charcoal goes easier on the stock

I'm sure you all know Larry Zoeller's "mini forge" set up. Now, while not completely being free from the build up of fumes and I'll still need to take the required steps, I'm starting to think it might be the 'safer' option?

[jimmy seale]

i don't use a gas forge but have heard they produce a lot of carbon monoxide. but another thing to think about is the metal being heated...you are sure to come across some with nasty stuff on/in it. so be wary of that too. plus any items stored in that space. but i do believe a well designed vent/hood arrangment will take care of that.that being said...one outher thought. maybe consider feeding air to the bellows from the outside? maybe trivial but just a thought. anyway enjoy jimmy

[Rich Hale]

Fire, no matter wot the fuel needs three things to burn: heat fuel and oxygen. In the simplest of terms the by products of fire are gasses and ash. The composition of these gasses are dependent on the product burned. They can range from soot, to the bad actors like carbon monoxide and can include cyanide. It stresses me a great deal when I see carbon monoxide confused on here with carbon dioxide. And that happens fairly often.

The most common fatality from smoke is from inhalation of carbon monoxide. Of all of the fire fatalities I have seen only a very few have been from the fire itself. and those were from contact with flammable liquids. Carbon monoxide has a intimate relationship with the oxygen carrying red blood cells that feed all of the parts of your body. The red blood cells would rather have CO than oxygen. And in order to restore the natural oxygen carrying ability of the red blood cells, they must be replaced. That process takes several days. However repeated exposure can delay that process.

Think through that if you will. If you forge in an area that is rich in CO you may feel no symptoms at all. But the changes in oxygen carrying ability is in place. The next day if you repeat the process you will damage more cells and some folks still do not feel any symptoms. At some point in time you may, even the first time, feel a touch dizzy, head ache, Or even as if you are going to faint. In a high concentration all of this may occur fast enough that you simply can not escape. Many fatalities are found near doors or windows and one we found after he had opened a door to the fridge and was trying to escape. Confusion and muscle weakness changes you ability to carry out a perhaps well rehearsed escape plan.
continued:

[MrCairney]

I dropped a line to a friend who installs wood burners among other things and he very amusingly sent me this when I enquired about a flue solution:

[Rich Hale]

continued:
Many folks fly into the face of danger in spite of advice like those above have given and I am adding to. Trust me This is not to be taken lightly and as strong as I can say this:

Do Not Bring a forge into an enclosed space and light it. It is a plan for disaster and Can certainly lead to death!

Many folks can say that they have done this and other dangerous things and still are alive as if that will give you a free ticket to put yourself in harms way with no consequences.
What makes me take my time to post this thread is from years of experience seeing the dark side of "things gone bad"
And that includes dealing with the families of the victims. I have never posted my credentials on this forum but feel if it will help make this point I will.

Retired from a large municipal fire department with thirty years of service.
One of the first emergency medical technicians in the state.
in the first group of fire firefighters to become certified as a advanced life support paramedic.
The first Fire Captain Paramedic in the state.
Hazardous materials response Captain when that unit was formed.
Incident Safety Officer for two years prior to retirement.

Again I say do not use gas or solid fuels inside a dwelling for forging.

[Fe-Wood]

I'm not as concerned as Rich about contained indoor fires. The key is containment and air quality. We burn all kinds of fuels inside for heat all the time. Without the proper care and systems in place it can kill you. Just understand what you are doing, how to do it right and if you don't feel comfortable with it, don't do it. Monitors are mandatory.

[MrCairney]

Thanks Fe-wood, although you can paint a dark picture, and I don't want to belittle anyones experience or expertise, I think that careful planning and procedure will mean I will be able to smith safely.

It's interesting that no-one here has replied to say they have a similar set up scenario (if anyone does, please do!). I guess this forum has a lot of US users, and you guys tend to have more space!

[evfreek]

This is almost certain to produce too much carbon monoxide to be safe. Even a small Asian hot pot can make you sick, and this is an order of magnitude smaller than your bucket forge, at least in terms of rate of fuel consumption. It sounds like you are a high school student from your style of writing. You have data on the rate of consumption of charcoal by your forge. Do some chemistry calculations and see how fast you will build up a dangerous concentration of carbon monoxide. Not if, when. Then, do a little surfing for the response time of a home improvement store grade carbon monoxide detector. Note that these detectors are not for measuring in dangerous situations. They are useful to warn you if there is a slow build up due to a furnace malfunction or an internal combustion engine in the vicinity. It is not advisable to use one of these detectors for a lab experiment, at least without knowledge of response time, calibration, reliability. And, if you are wondering, yes, I have had a first hand bad experience.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

Thanks Fe-wood, although you can paint a dark picture, and I don't want to belittle anyones experience or expertise, I think that careful planning and procedure will mean I will be able to smith safely. It's interesting that no-one here has replied to say they have a similar set up scenario (if anyone does, please do!). I guess this forum has a lot of US users, and you guys tend to have more space!

The reason no one has stated that they have a similar set up is because its too dangerous to consider. Have a dedicated set up outside. Even old blacksmiths shops were totally open to outside air and had a large tall flu to vent gasses. YOU ARE RISKING YOUR LIFE AND THE LIVES OF EVERYONE IN YOUR HOME. Your wrong in thinking we all have more space just because we live where we live.

[MrCairney]

It sounds like you are a high school student from your style of writing.

Not quite sure how you get that conclusion as I am far from that. I will however do some calculations based on the burn times I will be looking at.

[MrCairney]

The reason no one has stated that they have a similar set up is because its too dangerous to consider.

Aside from this, the logistics involved will probably mean I will leave the bucket outdoors and look into constructing a mini gas forge. I know a couple of smiths with this set up who, with the correct precautions, operate and use it safely on a daily basis.

Thanks to all for the insight.

[Glenn]

After reading this thread (again) most have advised you NOT TO PROCEED. Those with experience and or credentials as fire fighters, first responders, etc have advised you NOT TO PROCEED. What part of "it is a BAD IDEA" are you missing?

Please make other arrangements. You can construct an outside shelter to protect you from the wind and cold weather. Yes cold is relative and at some point it just makes more sense to put off forging until the weather warms up a little.

We are trying to keep you and those you live with safe.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

There are old smiths, and there are bold smiths, but there are few old, bold smiths.