stryder Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 I have a piece of 1095 hi carbon steel, what would i mix with it to have a good contrasting color in the finished steel? I need to learn more about steel grades and what to use, what to stay away from. any books i should read ? my main intrest is making knives and the tools needed to compliment the forge. Thanks, George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 George --Our own Dr. JIM has a good book or two out. I can not spell his last name with out looking it up. He post under JPH I believe. You could put some thin nickel or thin 15n20 with your high carbon, either one would be fine. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 26, 2006 Share Posted January 26, 2006 L6 has an appreciable Ni content and C content and makes for good differentiation in pattern welded steel billets. Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 27, 2006 Share Posted January 27, 2006 With your 1095,,both of the suggestions are excellent,,L-6 Is used for the big band saw blades in saw mills for lumber, It is selected for that because it does not wear alot and keeps a good edge and also has flexibility. 15n-20 is so close that a couple of references I have checked show the data as L-6/15N20. One other steel that is sometime used with 1095 is 203 e I believe that is mild steel with nickel added,,,really shows great contrast with high carbon. But then both of the earlier mentioned steels have the nickel content for contrast also,,, When I do 1095 and L-6 or 15N20 I use about the same amount of each and I ;like to end up with aroung 200 layer billet for a blade...Enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryder Posted January 27, 2006 Author Share Posted January 27, 2006 Thanks for the info!! i am of to hunt for some saw blades. a guy i know has a portable band saw mill, will check about dead blades. have a great day. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Stry: On the mix: 1095 is simple, plain, nothing added as close as you can get to shear steel, steel there is. If you weld up anything with any additional elements in the alloy that can effect the etching you will get a distinct patterning. L-6 will give the most contrast of the more commonly available steel, followed by O-1. A-203D/E while a high Ni steel is NOT hardenable so that should be taken into consideration. Now I use a lot of L-6 and 10XX series mixes, along with a lot of weird stuff from time to time. I take it you are just starting out on this.. If this is the case are you very VERY comfortable in your ability to weld? If so...then drop me a line and I might be able to help you out..if NOT, then you need to learn how first and then start in on the pattern welding. I start folks out welding mild steel to mild steel and then after a piece is done I cut it in half, once half is sectioned on my bandsaw to see how the welds are and the other half, we try to "pop apart" If you are in need of some help in welding, also feel free to drop me a line as well... welding isn't all that difficult, just takes some time, practice and attention to detail. But if you never seen it done it can be as frustrating as can be for someone starting out.. Good luck.. JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryder Posted February 1, 2006 Author Share Posted February 1, 2006 i can weld fairly well a little rusty but ,... which leads to a new question. which # of rod to use, can i use a 7014, or should i use a 6013, or 6011??? the nice thing about a 7014 is that the slag lifts right up leaving a fairly beautiful bead, as opposed to chipping and brushing and chipping some more. as you can tell i only have a stick welder, have to wish more till a mig comes to live here. yes i am just getting started to try to make my own damascus, as well as hand made knives. i am learning alot from you all, THANKS!! so anyway weld it up good with my lincoln, heat to welding temp in the forge and weld with a cross peen. what then grind the weld off and continue folding and welding untill i get as many layers as i want?? any reading material i should pick up?? there are so many books out there i am unsure as to which to pick up so as to not waste money and time by buying a book that doesnt quite meet the specifics of pattern welding or making damascus. also i fully expect to ruin some steel, which is probably an understatement!!!! Thanks so much for your input, Stryder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Stry: Ok pilgrim...methinks you misunderstood what I mean by welding. Forget the rod..forget the torch , forget all that stuff. I am talking forge/hammer welding. The "old way" it has been done since the Iron Age started back in Asia Minor a couple of thousand years ago. The basics of welding in a forge is to heat the two (or as many as you have) pieces until they are hot enough to stick together, quickly remove them from the forge, place on the anvil in the desired position and then lightly but firmly tap it with a hammer to make the weld. All of this being done before the pieces cool enough to drop belowe that welding temperature..Which by the way varies , depending upon the materails used.. I take it you are not familiar with this??? Confused??? Don't be.. welding is the most misunderstood process in smithing and one of the easiet to do decently... I can walk you through it...I have done this with a few folks over the years. As far as books go, I myself cannot comment on that due to past problems here. Seems that some thin skinned individuals got their knickers twisted up over me doing that... Drop me a e-mail..I can help ya JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Jim Hrisoulas has written The Complete Bladesmith, The Master Bladesmith, and The Pattern-Welded Blade. As far as books go, I myself cannot comment on that due to past problems here.The "problem" occured when an individual made what I considered a personal attack on Jim and was removed from the site. Jim, you are hereby instructed (ok requested) to make recommendations to the books (articles) that you feel will best answer the questions ask. If by chance you are the arthor, then that is just the way it is. After all you are an authority in the field. If anyone wants to "get their knickers in a twist" over the information recommended by Jim, then please quote reference materials with page numbers, or place your personal cridentials on the table as a reference. This way we can look up your source for reference, and all learn and benifit from the discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 to be able to speak as it were with the auther of standard works ,is not to be missed, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Well Glenn you are "The Boss"..I just didn't want to start up another "flame war" or get into a ****ing contest again after that first one. I tell ya, some folks just have some really thin skins.... But you know me...I tend to try to stay out of the "lime light"..I'll let other folks bask in the "glory and the fame"...that is fine for them..not for me... I just couldn't sit by while poor little Stryder there stumbled about trying to T&E it when I could save the guy a whole lotta heartache and frustration. I have seen folks get so worked up over failing at welding that they quit the whole smithing gig entirely and walk away from it for good.....and man I hate to see that happen... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 JPH-- You could if you feel like it, just post Stryder needs here.. So the rest of us PILGRIMS could have the benefit of it.GRIN I know for a fact it would help me to have you add what you care to. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Jim, Please do not go away. and from me please post info that you feel is pertainint. I know I always learn something. Over the years I have seen too many talented folks driven off by one or two idiots who do know know talent when it is speaking to them. As for those with the thin skin it seems to me they will be gone in short time as it takes a tough hide to get in and start forging. I know it took a fair number of forging sessions before I really learned how not to burn myself every time. 8) Ralph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 One of the guidelines of the site is "no personal attacks and no flame wars". Discuss the merits of one way vs another way untill everyone is blue in the face, but do it with facts and references so the rest of us can keep up. Jim, stick around as I would be very interested in your referrences to some tidbit of obscure literature, or a residual piece of a billet in some dusty corner of a shop or buried deep into the wall of a smithy somewhere. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azmike Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I'm near the end of my first year learning to forge, and to date, i've gotten one "weld" (med. carbon/recip. hacksaw blade) to take. i just figure that if it doesn't work today---maybe next time...there is so much more to learn and i can always improve at the anvil. thanks, i guess i need to "search" the forums here and see what else i don't know. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 azmike, Good attitude. Forge-welding is not the end all and be all for smithing. Making a smooth flowing project that makes folks go "Hmmmm, how did he /she do that?" is tho. With that said, I always tell folks how come to me for help with forge welding, to attempt AT LEAST one weld everytime you have a forge lit. Remember if you do not practise you will NEVER get better. Also do not be afraid to question convintional wisdom. Generally in a craft as old as ours the conventional wisdom is there for a good reason, but occasionally some bits of old knowledge are lost thru the ages, and it takes a new person to find it again. BUt also do not discount all the old ideas either..... 8) Good luck. And keep striving for your idea of perfection. After all you are in reality only competeing with yourself. Ralph 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryder Posted February 2, 2006 Author Share Posted February 2, 2006 gosh, i didnt mean to start a bunch of fluff!! i appreciate your comments and help. yes i am green, but have no mentor local to guide me through this. i have forge welded before, i was confused. a buddy of mine made some cool steel with barry gallagher up in montana, it was powdered steel they put in a container and welded up, forged, pressed cut etc into some cool patterned steel. i was under the impression that i needed to arc weld the edges until it was forge welded. i will buy the book so i can understand the process better, and then maybe i will post somemore questions. JPH, sorry for the negative comments. i guess people should relax a little and have fun with this cool hobby/ proffession . Thanks to all for your expertise and advice, have a great day!!, Stryder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 Howdy!! Hey..I didn;t say I was leaving...all I said was I didn't want to start up a pi**ing contest again...Glenn said not to worry about it..so I won't. AZ Mike: What KIND of saw blade was that do you know?? It could be the fact that you had a high Cr/Ni content alloy. Some of thise power hacksaw/recip saw blades are rather rich alloyed and that can have an adverse effect on welding if you are not aware of what you are working with. Even then there are ways around it. I would say start out with 1095 and L-6...these weld up like glue..or better yet..to get use to welding start out with wire rope..drop me a note if ya want... Stry: Ok what you are describing is called "can welding" and is becoming very popular, this involves powdered metals and sheets and all sorts of arcane stuff..I have done it...it's just not as much fun as traditional pattern welding , well at least to me it's not.. None of this stuff is that hard...I worked alone from pretty much day one and I still do...Now if you have any questions, either ask them here or drop me a line..I know we here can probably help you out. This goes for anyone else reading this by the way.. Take care JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 2, 2006 Share Posted February 2, 2006 I have a piece of 1095 hi carbon steel, what would i mix with it to have a good contrasting color in the finished steel? I need to learn more about steel grades and what to use, what to stay away from. any books i should read ? my main intrest is making knives and the tools needed to compliment the forge. Thanks Your question has been answered with a recommendation of steels to use, a recommendation of 3 books, and an invitation from Jim his-own-self to help you with your problem, right here on IForgeIron, or personally by email. Fluff? I would call it hard core, naa, holy grail information. Many folks struggle for years and don't get half as far as you have in just this thread. Congradulations on jump starting your blacksmithing and bladesmithing education. Jim, Thank you for your offer to assist him and others. A tip of my hat (shoot I will remove the hat completely - and smile) to you sir. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azmike Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Ralph--i don't try to weld every time, maybe i should -- but, like i said, i have so much else to learn that its not a big deal for now. JPH- the saw blade was a Starrett and i did in fact get a blade made from the result---for right handed work, as the saw blade steel is on the left side--and for fear of having a de-lamination, it looks more like a wide straight razor----but it works in the kitchen. thanks, mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryder Posted February 3, 2006 Author Share Posted February 3, 2006 Glenn , fluff was refering to the xxxx jph was recieving, I was out of town and missed the deleted post . I was trying to be nice and apologize. I am very aware that I am recieving tutaledge from master's of the craft. I dont enjoy the fact that my thread, to gain knowledge, has started xxxx, or (fluff). I simply wanted to know how to begin to try to make some beautiful metal. I appreciate this forum and all the info contained therein. what I dont understand is all the intalking, lets stick to the point. I dont have unlimited resources and cant waste money buying books that dont quite tell me what I need to know. Can't we all just get along?? As a newbie, all this doesn't look too good coming from "masters" so lets all play nice . Thanks for the opportunity to learn, think I'll keep my comments to myself in the future. JPH , thanks so much for your gracious offers , I will e-mail you after I get this out of town job done. thanks, stryderEdit: words adjusted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Stryder Please post any question you would like discussed. We will try to get you an answer. One correction to your comments: Nothing has been deleted. You did not stir things up, actually I did in telling Jim to post references to his books. To alter your quest for knowledge would be to let one individual (from long ago) that did not want to "play nice", and wanted to cause trouble, win. Don't do it, keep asking questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted February 3, 2006 Share Posted February 3, 2006 Stryder: Ok methinks you jumped the gun a bit....let me clarify... 1: YOU didn't start anything, when I made that statement, it was in regards to a rather unpleasant posting by an individual who got his knickers bunched up because I suggested that he get a hold of several titles and one of them happened to be one that I authored. It got freakin' ugly really quick and well, I just didn't want a repeat of that. That is all. My comments were in no way, shape or form aimed at you or anyone, I just wanted to advoid another unpleasantry. 2: I have been more or less "crucified" by folks who for some reason do not feel that it is "correct" for me to "divulge secrets". What a crock of well...you know. There are NO SECRETS..now are there things that I hold back from folks? Most certainly, but only until I can know for sure that they are working "safe" and not going to harm themselves or someone else if they try using a certain chemical compound or technique. Some of the things I do can be quite hazardous but if you work safe, they are no more "dangerous" than anything else. You get your head up your grommit for 2 seconds and something might just bite you hard and deep... So I cheesed off a few folks...I certainly am not loosing any sleep over that, in fact for every one I upset I must of helped thousands..good rate of exchange if you ask me. 3: Speak up...you have a question, let's hear it..If you have a comment, let's hear those too. This is a "forum" after all... Believe me, I am like Voltaire on that subject... $:If you want to get into forge welding...heck we'll help ya...but I gotta ask what you plan on doing with it after you got it made? Are your skills at a point where they will do this materail "justice" or are you wanting to make a $50.00 knife out of a $500.00 piece of material?? Now if you are at the point where you can do it decently, then let's dance...if not.. well then let's get you to that point. Drop me a line when ya get back in town...might take me a day or two to respond as I have RPFS looming in the near future that I have got to make stock for... Oh...dang I just remembered...if you want to see a more or less "real time" tutorial on welding up a ladder pattern bar, I just posted a tutorial on my website that shows how I do it.. now everyone works differently but it will give you the basics of what is entailed. This will give you an idea as to what you are getting into...It's dirty, it's smelly, it frustarting but it sure is FUN!! JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 I just read the tutorial. Very nice, thanks for taking the time to do it. Will you add a photo of how it looks finished? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandpile Posted February 4, 2006 Share Posted February 4, 2006 Hmmm, I wonder why I can not see an url or place to click to see the tutotoral. Must be some of that MOJO I have been hearing about.Grin Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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