evfreek Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Some time ago, a kind bladesmith in this forum gave me a few pieces of 15N20 to use for the brighter bands in a billet instead of the scrap bandsaw blade I was using with pallet strapping. Since this was good steel, I purchased some 1080 from Kelly Cupples to go along with it. I arc tacked a billet which was about 1 and 1/2" wide, 6" long, and 1 and 1/4" thick. This was challenging to get uniformly hot in the forge, and I burned about 30 pounds of charcoal to just get the weld and part of the first draw. The billet separated when I hit it on the side, and it was difficult to weld it back, so I decided to cut it and see what was going on. I think that the forge was just not putting out enough heat (temperature was sufficient, just not enough heat). Can this billet be salvaged? I hate throwing away good raw material . Is there any way to get flux into the cracks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 You have to size your billets to the size of your forge---not the size of your metal! You have a chance to save this but you need to heat it hot in a large forge and a powerhammer would really help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Hello: What the good Brother Thos. said plus I wouild soak it in some liquid flux (supersaturate solution of 1/2 borax and 1/2 boric acid) for a while and heat it up slowly in the right size of forge. I could "save" it cause I weld up some pretty monsterous billets for a one man opperation all the time.. It's just like Thomas said...you need to size the billet to your forge. Hope this helps.. JPH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triw Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 One thing I learned from my teacher is when the out side is to temp you clap it in a vice and let the inside of the billet come up in temp then back into the forge to welding temp. Also hit the billet in over lapping hammer blows and do not hit when it loses its color, hitting it cold will break the welds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swmncrcles Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 I would like to chime in as a newby and second the size of the forge. Just destroyed a chainsaw chain billet because the forge was not deep enougH (have since built a new forge) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
char Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 From one california newby to another, I'm having alot of trouble getting my charcoal burner up to a hot enough temp. Could you post a picture, I built mine after studying pictures of Tim Lively's forge. The only thing I can figure is that I need both more fuel and more air. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Hi Thomas and Jim. Thanks for the answers. I do have a powerhammer. It is an LG 25. The billet size is at the top end of the die spacing, but it will fit. The reason that I thought that the billet was too large was that when I was turning it, it was cooling on the top while the bottom was up to temperature. The suggestion about borax and boric acid water solution is encouraging. I will try that. Since the billet was cut in half, each piece will now be half the size, so will have a better chance of success. How big a forge is required for the original billet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 Hi triw. Thanks, that vice idea sounds good. I think that I was giving the billet enough time to soak (it took over an hour to do the weld, and more for the partial first draw). The heat seemed to be uneven from top to bottom. I am aware of the necessity to keep the billet hot. One rule of thumb a bladesmith told me is that you should flux with 20 mule team borax, and the billet should be hot enough before returning to the fire that the borax melts to that honey coating immediately (no froth). If it is too cold, and requires heating to uniformly coat it, you were hitting it while it was too cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted November 9, 2008 Author Share Posted November 9, 2008 From one california newby to another, I'm having alot of trouble getting my charcoal burner up to a hot enough temp. Could you post a picture, I built mine after studying pictures of Tim Lively's forge. The only thing I can figure is that I need both more fuel and more air. Thanks Hi Char. I used to have a version of Tim Lively's washtub forge. I did not like it for forge welding. It did not get hot enough. And it was kind of small. And, it seemed to be air-starved. It did work OK for forging, but it was not worth the space, and I got rid of it. The forge that I am using is really plain vanilla. It uses the standard Centaur Forge rectangular coal firepot, which is 12x14". The blower is a Champion 400 type hand crank blower. It is connected to the firepot with a flex hose then thin steel tubing. You can see a picture of such a forge almost anywhere forges are featured. The charcoal is mesquite lump charcoal, chopped painstakingly with a hatchet into bite sized pieces. The height of the mound above the table is 6 to 8" and the billet is placed above the table, to prevent excessive oxidization. The charcoal consumption is ferocious and there is a lot of radiant heat (need apron). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
char Posted November 9, 2008 Share Posted November 9, 2008 i was afraid that it was going to require the processing you describe. I didnt want to spend what natural charcoal costs so I have been using hardwood pallets, it works fine for forging and treating but I cant get it hot enough to weld. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Steinkirchner Posted November 11, 2008 Share Posted November 11, 2008 it sounds like tou are placeing your billet with a face down instead of edgeways. if you place it on edge it will heat all of the layers at once instead of from one to the next, this way you will get more even heat on the billet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted November 11, 2008 Author Share Posted November 11, 2008 Hi youngsmith. I am turning my billet 1/4 of a turn at a time so that it spends approximately equal times for each side facing up. The problem is that every time I peek, it is appreciably hotter on the bottom than it is on the top. That meant that the top was cooling. I ground the billet down and noticed a lot of spreading on the outer layers, also indicating unevenness. Probably could use some correction between drawing passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted November 13, 2008 Author Share Posted November 13, 2008 Hi. The billet in this handout is 1 x 1(1/8) x 6, which is about half the size of what I started out with. Is the forge described in the handout adequate in size? (It is a propane forge)Combined Handout for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 Personally, I would start again - I know its a waste of the materials youve used, but there is nothing more depressing than flaws appearing when your grinding. Once there is delaminations in a billet it is very difficult to get them to re-weld. (especially if your not cooking hot enough!) I have only ever welded with gas, and my experience is that when its hot enough to make a good, 100% weld you can barely look at it, its that hot! , seeing colour differences in the billet suggests to me your not in the right ballpark. Maybee save this billet untill youve got a good hot gas forge, and go back to it! One thing I find really helps with a multi layer 'stacked' billet is to heat it VERY gently and as evenly as you can up to a very dull red heat, then flux. If you heat it real slow it heats evenly, and stops the outer layers distorting from the stack, which keeps any excess oxygen off the steels welding faces. On a side note if your looking to make a gas forge for welding in do some research on the Don Fogg vertical gas forges, I just test fired mine today and with a single venturi burner MELTED a bar of steel, quite exciting balls of molten steel dropping off it when I took it out Ive built some good horizontal welding forges but this is just in a different league! Ill post some pics of it next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Richards Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 EV, You might be able to reweld but as mentioned above it might not be worth the time or charcoal. The problem with welding in a solid fuel forge is they are very dirty. I can be done and is on a regular basis. Charcoal is cleaner than coal but it burns up rapidly. A smaller billet to start would be advantageous. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Richards Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 What kind of charcoal are you using?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted November 19, 2008 Author Share Posted November 19, 2008 Hi Chuck. I am using mesquite lump BBQ charcoal, Best of the West brand, I believe. It looks like chunks of wood, and it is easy to chop into bite sized pieces with a chisel. I have heard that some charcoal is not suitable for making billets as it contains too much ash. Phil Baldwin once tried to sell me several bags of such charcoal for BBQ use only, when he found out that it was ashy. I think that the billet was too big, though. One of my friends and I went to his instructor's forge, and we paid for an extra lesson to weld up a smaller billet. The instructor had us grind the sheets convex on a belt sander to provide some egress for flux, and did the initial welding pass in a coal forge. We used good Elkhorn blacksmithing coal from Lazzari's. The billet looked good and felt solid, but it opened up in a couple of places when we were drawing it out. I just bought a very nice Goodell and Pratt hand shear which is great for knocking the size down, and it should help with smaller experiments. I also got some Kaowool for making a gas forge. Just have coal and charcoal now. Thank you very much for all your help and attention on this project. I would really like to put the effort in to make it worth your while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Richards Posted November 19, 2008 Share Posted November 19, 2008 The convex idea is a good one. One class i took we did the same. One thing when you begin to draw the billet make sure it is done at welding temps. This will help keep it together. It will burn up more fuel but it is better than breaking the billet apart. Keep on trying. You'll get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now