I have a Vevor 2 burner propane forge.

At this point the choke sleeves, and burner pipes no longer have paint on them, after using it a couple hours I can see flames in the choke vent holes, and the pipes themselves glow dark red. I assume neither of these things is a positive. 

At one point only one pipe was red, I tried turning off the ball valve and it eventually cooled off then I turned it back on.
Suggestions? I would prefer not to die.

Just for clarification, this doesn't happen immediately, but after I have been using it a while. Probably nature's way to telling me that I have been working at it too long and it is time to go inside. But I am not sure that is the right answer.

This has the kaowool lining and I slathered it with refractory cement, and on top of that is a fire brick for a floor. Someone had suggested that I better seal the outside where the tubes fo into the top of the box. So I wrapped a layer around the seam and twisted it in place with some wire. I notice no difference. 

The regulator has no numbers or indicator, so I am merely guessing at what PSI I am running it. Similarly the choke is handled by a sleeve that potentially covers a series of 3/8" holes that can be slid up and down to cove or reveal some or all of them, then held in place with a screw. I have run this wide open and mostly closed, and tried guessing at a setting in between. It all feels like some serious guess-work, but I am not sure what I am looking for exactly, unlike lighting a OA torch...

Including some photos showing the refractory drying when I first did it. Then you can see it pretty before first firing. Then with all the paint burned off. I don't have a photo with the pipes glowing red, but I could get one next session. 

I have never used that forge or those burners, but what I can tell you for sure is that you had flames burning in the mixing tube.  You do not want that.  The flames should always be at the forge end of the mixing tube and never inside the tube itself.  Because your burners are top mounted there will always be heat rising up through the mixing tube when you shut down the burners.  However, in use the mixing tubes should be roughly ambient temperature and certainly cool enough to touch without concern about being burned.

If you want us to help diagnose your issues take some still shots from the side right after you light your burners.  It's best to do that in moderate to low light rather than sunlight so we can see the flame characteristics.   That will tell us a lot.  You can also take another picture or two a few minutes later when the forge starts to glow, but the initial flame in a cold forge is the place to start.

To start with, your burners look to be positioned in the wrong place; the manufacturer may have intended this, or not. But the result is that the flames are also positioned in the wrong place. So, begin by pushing the burners deeper into the forge. How far? Start with the end of the burner flame retention nozzles (which are also the forward end of those burners) just the inner face of the refractory, so that the flames are fully burning inside the forge (but the flame retention nozzles are not). Then gradually move them up, to no more than 1" inside the refractory's inner surface.

Buzzkill has it right, that those burners are burning back into their mixing tubes; the question is why that is happening. Changing the burner positions should bring immediate relief from some of your problems; perhaps not all of them, but the rest can be dealt with as they present themselves. Do this simple thing, and get back to us with the results.

So, I looked up Vevor's heating equipment on the Net; they have a lot of similar equipment; most of which use the same flame retention nozzle design, and improper positioning as yours. Also, most, if not all of, of their burners have flame retention nozzles that are welded in place on their mixing tubes (one of the forges have different burners, which are placed where their flame retention nozzles, if any, don't show). Even their stainless steel burners have flame retention nozzles that will oxidize away in a few months; this will happen more rapidly on the the mild steel burners, like yours. Why? Because flame retention nozzles always oxidize away; this is why most flame retention nozzles are held in place with screws; they are meant to be replaceable.

We've talked about these forges and burners before haven't we? I really had to search their site to find a pic of one of these burners out of a forge and not one decent pic of one burning in a forge. The only pic of one burning looked so so  at best but it may have been a brand new forge and burning the calcite wash or refractory.

Do we know where these are made? 

We'll get it working as well as it can for you Absinthe but first I need to list what jumps out at me.

The burners being top mounted in a 5 sided forge chamber looks to be intended to cause back pressure on the burners.

The burner nozzles are too tight in the mounting sleeve so it's impossible to align them so as to minimize back pressure.

I'd much rather see them mounted in one of the angled sidewalls so the flame impinges the floor at an angle and swirls in the chamber. Mounted vertically as they are the flame impinges a directly perpendicular surface and swirls in all directions. Tries to that is which sort of traps the flame's pressure. Back pressure.

Ah, I see Mike dove deeper into Vevorville than I did. Egads the retention nozzle is a cheat to make people buy a new burner regularly! Flares/retention nozzles are consumable, as Mike says they WILL burn up before too long. Welding them to the mixing tube makes the entire burner a short lived consumable. 

I don't know about other Vevor products but this stunt alone puts them on my list of scam sites.

I'm thinking you should build a couple burners and get away from those . . . things. Don't worry, we'll help and it shouldn't be too expensive, in fact a fraction of the price of ONE replacement vevor.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

2 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

To start with, your burners look to be positioned in the wrong place; the manufacturer may have intended this, or not. But the result is that the flames are also positioned in the wrong place. So, begin by pushing the burners deeper into the forge. How far? Start with the end of the burner flame retention nozzles (which are also the forward end of those burners) just the inner face of the refractory, so that the flames are fully burning inside the forge (but the flame retention nozzles are not). Then gradually move them up, to no more than 1" inside the refractory's inner surface.

I tried to take a picture, but it is kind of "meh". But near as I can tell those tubes end at the top of the box itself. They do not protrude into the kaowool, much less into the layer of refractory cement. I think I can force these down all the way to the floor if I try hard enough. (Realize that isn't the goal, just that there is no restriction inside the steel that would stop them). However, they will only go so far, and still be able to secure with the side screw. 

I will have to un-wire my gerry-rigged top insulation, then I can try feeding then through the wool, and refractory cement, so that the openings are even with the refractory ceiling? Or some amount below?

I would suggest, instead, that you drill and thread two other holes, and employ three longer screws through them, to hold them against the burners mixing tubes; this allows you to move the burners to different depths within the forge, and also to keep those burners centered in the forge's burner openings

Well, I have drills and taps, and I am not afraid to use them... 

I will assume they are made in China like everything else.
I appreciate that! At some point I wouldn't mind building my own, so this seemed like a cheap enough example to get started. 
I will withhold attributing to malice that could simply be cheapness of process. 
The "muskets" (their name  ) came assembled, so I never really got to look inside how the parts were mounted. 
I will move them first, then see if I have to build new ones. Thanks again.. (Sorry for the big quote, I couldn't figure how to respond inline. )
 

Edited May 14, 20242 yr by Mod30
Excessive quoting

Okay, did some examination, and took some photographs. I lit it and showed the initial, then turned it up and took some more photos. I cleared any refractory from near the opening. I was wrong, there is a restriction so it is in as far as it will go. I removed the tubes and showed the nozel, it seems threaded rather than welded as someone supposed. I hope this helps.

 

 

Good Morning,

What are you using for doors on the ends? If you lay a flat brick outside the front, you can support your work and provide support for doors. I don't think your work piece has been hot enough, either from the lack of heat inside or from taking the work out too early.

My experience of the burners getting too hot, back up the tubes, is lack of air movement through the burner. I don't know why there is a restrictor at the end of your burner tube. Take the washer out and try it.

Neil

I,m sorry, that is your nozzle support. My BAD!!!!

Neil

The flame retention nozzle we were talking about is what you show in Pic 2 and I don't know what to think about the restriction with the holes. How is this attached to the burner mixing tube?

The brass fitting you thought we were talking about is the "Jet" and focuses the propane flow like a water nozzle focuses the water stream. It's inside diameter ID determines the volume of propane that enters the burner at a given pressure.

The stream of propane also called a jet produces low pressure behind it as it flows down the mixing tube which induces combustion air through the holes in the tube, the choke sleave is used to adjust the air fuel mix. 

What brand castable refractory did you use for the flame face? (inside of the forge that comes in direct contact with the flame) You said refractory Cement and I managed to not to lecture. . . Barely. Unfortunately refractory "Cement" is a mortar type cement used to hold bricks and such together in a hot environment like a fireplace or pit and not suitable for a propane forge flame face. Unfortunately so many people have been using the term incorrectly manufacturers have begun selling Refractory as refractory cement. <sigh>

That leaves me not knowing what you actually used and it makes a real difference but it's in so don't worry for now. If it is the mortar you'll find out soon enough and we'll help you get it right. Not your fault. 

Why I bring it up is you really need to get the split brick out of there! It brings the floor very close to the burners and is probably THE reason they're overheating and burning back like you describe above.

If you have more of the refractory you made the flame face with lay another layer on the existing floor to give it some more abrasion resistance.

And lastly for now, making door baffles similar to what Neil suggests will go a long ways to keeping the fire IN the forge where it can transfer energy to the flame face where it will re-radiate onto your work and heat it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

 

I have a devil forge and i put a firebrick in front of the opening so i have an "extended" floor outside my forge.

I put an other brick to close the opening on the side where the dragonbreath is the biggest amd the back I closed with 2 bricks.

Somewhere in the gasforgetopic I read that you have to keep the baffles (the firebricks) a small distancr from the forge so i keep them at +/- 1cm away.

I have the cheapest one, the one with the nozzle on 2 oclock.

With everything on place i can get rougly 10 to 12 hours forging out off a small bottle (12,5kg) on yellow heat. Without the baffles on a yellow orange it was 8 hours. So more heat for longer only with hard firebricks. 

I can get welding heat, but i almost never do it, the cheap forge comes with only 25mm of insulation and the bricks are turning into dust quick.

Not at home this week so I cannot show pictures and not sure i have any at all.

18 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

Good Morning,

What are you using for doors on the ends?

So this is a mixed thing. I have a bunch of fire brick, both insulative and hard. I have closed off the back, using a big piece of soft fire brick. But then someone said not to close things off because that might cause the heating to go up the pipes

 

i do have a fair amount of fire brick, both soft and hard. 

Edited May 14, 20242 yr by Mod30
Trim quote.

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

The flame retention nozzle we were talking about is what you show in Pic 2 and I don't know what to think about the restriction with the holes. How is this attached to the burner mixing tube?

 

Everything seems to be connected with friction fit and a side screw. The nozel fits down a hole in the pipe and then has a screw that keeps it moving. It is possible to move that further out of the pipe if necessary, but I bottomed it out down into it. 

The choke holes are where they are not much I can do about them other than moving the nozel further away from them.

The pipe flairs somewhat at the end, and has a series of holes around the bottom but it also has a "bottom out when it is placed into the box." Relationship.

As for the refractory cement, it came in a bag with the forge, and minimal instruction. I still have a cup or so left. 

Basically it came with the wool in place and instructions to coat it with the cement. I have since bought some more to have and use in places, and some liquid rigidizer to go with it. 

I can certainly remove the bricks from the "floor". Once again it was a mixed thing. Some said put them in some said don't put them in and so on.

As for baffles, I have enough fire bricks one one type or another to stack up external floor extension and completely close off the back .... As well as the front of I were to so choose to do so.

Pretty soon I will have an empty refrigerant tank tank (my son does HVAC so I could have a lot of them ) Perhaps, I can have a parallel project, building that into a forge "correctly" and eventually move over to it, and sell this one off (at which point it should finally be working correctly)

 

Edited May 14, 20242 yr by Mod30
Trim quote.

Good Morning,

It doesn't matter what kind of brick you use for the ends, regardless what others may think (soft brick breaks up easier and sooner). If you leave a little opening in the back, that cuts down a bit of the Dragon breath out the working end. On the working end, front, I leave an opening closer to the bottom. I use two pieces of broken brick and lay a full brick sideways across the top of the pieces to block off the top part.

Heat in the Burner Tube, means flame is moving up into the Tube. You don't have enough air flow to keep the flame at the tip of the Burner. Try using an old Hair Dryer/Blower to add air to your air intake (use a reostat to vary the blower speed). The tip of your Gas Jet creates the low pressure behind it, that draws the Air in the Air ports. The Gas Jet MUST BE IN CENTER of the Burner. Adjust the Gas Jet, in further, to draw in more Air. Frosty is always talking about 'Fine Tuning' his Burners. This is adjusting where the tip of the Jet is, in relation to where the Air in-ports are.

Whatever Air/Gas mixture goes into the Forge, there must be sufficient chimney openings, for the waste to get out.

Good Luck, Neil

 

So, maybe I should mention that I might possibly not be delivering enough propane pressure. 

At this point I have just opened the tank valve a quarter turn or half or whatever. Then using the regulator valve. Someone suggested that I open the tank all the way, then use the valve on the regulator to supply the forge. 

Not sure, but I thought I would share. 

For sure.  Also, while on this topic, is that tank full or nearly empty?

This one is absolutely full. Just filled it to be sure

Edited May 14, 20242 yr by Mod30
Excessive quoting

Absinthe: I'll try to keep this short, you're obviously being confused with so much coaching. When I asked how the burner's flame nozzle is attached to the tube. I was asking just that, the burner "flare" and the mixing tube. 

The burner mounts don't need explanation or closer pics. 

I'll talk about good fire brick vs the ones Neil is talking about in another post. Buy the right ones and insulating fire bricks don't crumble at welding heat.

We're typing at the same time. ALWAYS open the tank valve all the way! Opening them part way can actually damage them. The 1/4 turn ball valves on the burner manifold are on/off valves as well and not for adjusting the gas flow. The way your burners are set up the gas flow is controlled through the pressure regulator and judged by sight and sound. You adjust the fuel air mixture by restricting the intake air, choke. 

If it had needle valves instead of 1/4 turn valves you could adjust the flow volume with the needle valves. 1/4 turn ball valves CAN be used to adjust flow but not accurately and they get bumped out of adjustment too easily. You will be bumping the forge when using it you know. 

Frosty The Lucky.

It's a bit odd that there are neither gauges to read, or any numbers to set on the valve. So the one with the forge says something about 30 psi, so I am assuming that it will deliver 30 wide open? Or that it will handle a tank that is feeding it at most 30 psi?

Then I see lots of people bragging on how they are tunning their foreges at 1 or 2 or 8 psi... I wouldn't even know what psi I am at, much less be able to "set" it to xyz psi.

I do know when things look or sound different so I assume that once I get it right, I will know what I am doing but so far, I have neither frame of reference, nor relative experience to compare it to. I feel like I am trying to follow granny's old recipes of "Well, put in just enough, you know so it looks right, and not so much so that it looks like you put too much in."   

4 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Absinthe: I'll try to keep this short, you're obviously being confused with so much coaching. When I asked how the burner's flame nozzle is attached to the tube. I was asking just that, the burner "flare" and the mixing tube. 

 

Okay, step one "Learn the proper names for things, and use them correctly. " Note to self, you would think I'd know this by now

So, the thing that looks like a mig tip is a nozle, but should in no way have any burning going on near it. However, about 12" away the pipe sort of flares out somewhat, but has some holes in the base where that happens and sits in the mount plate for the forge. Below that is where flames should be and they are. You can see a relatively neutral flame in the picture where I just lit the forge.  Very blue and barely licking the brick. When I turned up the pressure at the tank, is the second lit photo, and you can see the flame is crashing into the brick where the blue is burried and the slight orange is rolling off of it. Granted this is not all the way heated, but just long enough to take a photo. 

When next I go out there, I will crank the tank, then try to control the flow with the regulator valve. I can get it to light happily without much pressure, and I can turn it up until it screams, and shoots plenty of breath out the front. But, that seems incorrect. Though, that might be incorrect thinking on my part, and part of the problem.  

Absinthe: You are working yourself into a corner most folks do when breaking into a craft. Forget the gages or numbers on the regulator they can only serve ONE useful purpose and only confuse new folk. Who cares what some braggart on the web says he can turn the psi on HIS burner down to? I've been building effective, naturally aspirated burners for about 35 years and no two have ever been matched closely enough to produce the same flame / heat at the same psi. I build them from off the shelf components and every single one is unique.

IGNORE what other people say is the right pressure, they don't understand burners so what they say is just group think. 

What YOU need to do is learn what your burner SOUNDS LIKE when it's tuned correctly. Your other good indicator is what the flame LOOKS LIKE. Until you KNOW what a good flame looks and sounds like all a gage can do is confuse you, especially if you try to make your burner where you live operate at the same pressure as someone else's burner, where ever they live. 

You'll get flooded by opinions here too, most just parroting youtube video BS. A number of the guys here design and build outstanding NA propane burners, better than mine. 

Pick ONE set of plans to build to, or one mentor and do your best to take everything else with a healthy pinch of salt.

Frosty The Lucky.

3 hours ago, Absinthe said:

The flame retention nozzle we were talking about is what you show in Pic 2 and I don't know what to think about the restriction with the holes.

I do know, and it looks like a case of "monkey see, monkey do." a circle of smaller holes outside a central flame hole is employed on many older air/propane torch heads to induce secondary air and fuel into a row of little flames around the center flame; narrowing it for torch use. However, the burner head is constructed to provide sufficient secondary air/fuel mix to feed those holes. I don't believe these burners can, so the secondary holes probably don't adequately serve their purpose.

I suspect that he would be better served to run his burners with their flame retention nozzles taken off, and replaced by simple pipe couplings (to preserve the ends of the mixing tubes from oxidative loss).

45 minutes ago, Frosty said:

...Forget the gages or numbers on the regulator

What YOU need to do is learn what your burner SOUNDS LIKE when it's tuned correctly. Your other good indicator is what the flame LOOKS LIKE.

We are in agreement. I was more commenting on what I had done, and the guesses I had made. 

If I get things going and turn down the pressure, I recognize the sputtering "womping" sound as a bad thing. 

My biggest actual problem is not the lack of gauges, but the lack of experiential knowledge of what mine should LOOK and SOUND like.

Definitely the goal. 
On top I notice that there is a difference between first lit and "heated up" once the whole inside is glowing. 
So, light it when it is heated up turn it down or up or something? 

35 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

I suspect that he would be better served to run his burners with their flame retention nozzles taken off, and replaced by simple pipe couplings (to preserve the ends of the mixing tubes from oxidative loss).

What you describe sounds like a non-trivial change. These pipes are fabricated sheet metal with cradles for holding the fuel nozzle and so forth. They are not black-pipe and won't connect easily to pipe connectors that I am aware of. I could rebuild them from the ground up using pipe nipples and tees and so on, but that appears to be something to do in parallel to getting this one configured. Not that I wouldn't like to build my own burners, and not that i won't some day, but this should be a configurable system. Maybe not optimally, but to somewhat relatively correct settings.  

Scrapping and starting over is always more palatable than tweaking someone else's design. But for as many as these that have been sold, and as many positive usage reports I have to assume it could be made to work with its existing design. I could be wrong, but I am hoping not. 

I will hope along with you. I assume that you have now cleared away all refractory from the burner openings. Has that helped?

I have done that, but other than the lighting to take those photos, I haven't done any usage (it was not a forging day ) It is possible I will get to try. something tonight. 

Edited May 14, 20242 yr by Mod30
Excessive quoting