Trying to solve the problem with grandfathers forge.

[Kogut]

I would like to start with saying hi to everyone as this is my first post here.

Very recently I moved back home and started forging in my grandfathers forge. I will attach some pictures so You can clearly see the forge type. But basically it is the simpliest side blast forge one can think of.

So the problem is I cannot seem to get the forge to burn consistently. One day I can easily reach forge welding heat. The other day I can't get it to keep burning as it goes off quickly. 

There must be something I don't see as most of my experience comes from forging modern bottom blast coke forges (almost exclusively). My grandfather worked with this setup for decades and I also get it to work but not always. To be clear I use good coke from same supplier and I always start the fire with wood then add charcoal to boost temp and slowly add coke.

I was considering replacing grandfathers forge with my trusty bottom blast forge but I would really love to forge with it to honour my grandfather - my role model and first teacher.

Pictures show the forge not working so everyone can see the type and some pictures show how hot it gets when it goes .

Thank You all for taking the time to read my post. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. 

While I don't usually work with coal or coke I think I could use your forge. It sure looks HOT. How about a few pics when it's not burning properly or all we can do is guess.

What kinds of blacksmith work do you do?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Daswulf]

If your fuel and starting method is consistent and works sometimes well, then my guess that when it doesn't work there must be something blocking the air blowing in. Maybe a chunk of coke or clinker blocking the tuyere? 

[George N. M.]

Welcome aboard frsom 7500 feet (2285 meters) in SE Wyoming, USA.  Glad to have you.

It is hard to diagnose fire management problems without actually watching what you re doing or not doing.  However, the one thing I have discovered while using coke as a fuel is that you HAVE to keep an air blast to it almost all the time.  You can leave the shop to go in the house to use the loo but that is about it.  When I am doing bench work I have to turn around and give the blower a crank or two every 2-3 minutes to keep the fire from dying down too far.

Sometimes, if a fire is just not cooperating it is better to let it go out and start over rather than trying to get it to increase to optimum usability while burning.

My comments and experience come from using a bottom blast but I don't think the direction of the blast should make much difference.

I use coal as an intermediate starting fuel where you use charcoal but I doubt that makes any difference once the fire is started.

Also, you may not be aware of this because you are not an American but the letters KKK have a very bad racist conotation in the US because they represent a racist organization that was active in the 19th and 20th centuries, particularly in the Southern US.  I'm sure that is not your intent but you should know that some people will have a very negative reaction to those 3 letters.  You might want to drop 1 letter from your "handle."  The site moderators may ask you to change it to avoid any problems.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Daswulf]

I'll also say welcome. 

It is great that you got to learn from your grandfather and have those memories and have some of his equipment to carry on the craft. 

[Kogut]

43 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

you may not be aware of this because you are not an American but the letters KKK have a very bad racist conotation

Oh I didn't know. I've changed it to my real last name. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

53 minutes ago, Daswulf said:

Maybe a chunk of coke or clinker blocking the tuyere? 

Might be... I'll make sure to check that the next time I forge (probably Wednesday). Maybe I should skip crushing coke into smaller pieces so the air has more space. My other idea was to build a wall from firebrick so the pile of coke would stay smaller and the air would "bounce back" (sorry I don't know the proper form to say this in English) it would be similar to japanese charcoal forge. But my grandfather never done anything like that. it was always just the pile of coke next to the brick wall and it always worked for him.

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

How about a few pics when it's not burning properly or all we can do is guess.

What kinds of blacksmith work do you do?

I'll make sure do take a picture but it basically stalls at the lower temperature and all that's left to do is to start over.

 

What kind of work? Mostly simple things like bottle openers, candle holders etc. I am planning to get into forging equipment for historical reenactors and bladesmithing in the future as soon as my skill level allow me do that.

And most of the time I just collect some scrap metal and reuse it to create something I find interesting treating blacksmithing purely as a hobby. Here is my last finished project, fairly large wall mounted candle holder.

[Frosty]

Don't worry, nobody is going to think you deliberately used the initials of the Klan. It was mentioned because people have started to look for things to take offense to. Personally I believe they don't have anything useful to do and need some attention. They can't make anything but noise.  

Sounds like you're going to fit right in with the Iforge gang, many of us are hobbyists who collect make things that interest us one way or another from stuff we find. Nice wall sconce sort of candle hanger, I like it and may have to see what I come up with from the idea.

Can you get the fuel your Grandfather used? It might simplify things if you switch or maybe buy a couple sacks and gradually convert to the coke. That way you'll know how the fuel works and can gradually switch over so you have time to adjust. 

I'm not a solid fuel guy, good coal is hard to get here so I mostly burn propane in a specially designed forge. But as a matter of practice when burning solid fuel I ALWAYS start with a clean forge, I clean it to the air grate and might keep the "breeze" coal that was coked in the forge as opposed to commercially made coke. 

Clean the forge and that includes make sure your Tuyere is clean, that's the air blast pipe passing through your fire back to the forge pan. Sometimes the best fuel has a little moisture in it and can pop when it heats up which can sent pieces everywhere maybe into the tuyere blocking the air. It might not block it completely but disrupt the stream so it is just blowing ON the coke rather than INTO it. If your fire isn't working right maybe see if you can find a bit of coke or stone that got shot into the tuyere, Make a little hok from stiff wire to fish around with. The most likely time to have damp fuel pop is when you're first starting the fire. This would be high on my list of things to check.

Another thing that is common with coke, and that's how it's handled at the company that makes it, the one that ships it and the one that delivers it to you or where you pick it up. Many places do not have a special clean place to pile it, some do have a clean concrete pad but many don't, maybe most. Soooo, when you load your forge don't just shovel it on, maybe spread it on a sheet of plywood and  check for rocks or bits of clinker that got shipped too. If you don't find any or very many stones, etc. in a load of coke you might not want to bother  checking the rest of it. However if you find some you might want to check each time you load your forge or if there's a lot have the supplier take it back or make good on it.

That's high on my problem list too, I've known guys who wouldn't let the coal company unload until he'd checked but their suppliers weren't very choosy themselves.

Another solution you touched on is making the fire into a "trench" by placing bricks a distance from the tuyere to contain the fire. This type of side blast forge has been under serious discussion recently though in the form of the JABOD which is simply Just A Box Of Dirt with a trench across it and a tuyere inserted so it intersects the trench from the side. 

You already have the tuyere and fire back so stand a brick or two on edge about 1 brick width from the tuyere. I don't know  the dimensions of your bricks so I'm converting ours to metric as an example. Yes?  Our's measure approximately 56mm x 124mm x 248mm. By standing it on edge I mean with the 248 across the tuyere about 124mm away standing 124 mm high.  Experiment, leaning it back so it slopes upwards is popular, move it closer or farther, make it longer, taller, etc. Having the wall in front of the air blast does indeed contain the fire and redirects it upwards or sideways, depending on how you manage it. If it works for you piling coke or soil behind the brick wall will help prevent it from moving when you don't want it too. You can also change the size and shape while the fire is burning if you wish.

Make sense?

I think that's all I can come up with for now, I'm sure more of the guys will chip in soon.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark Mountains U.S.A. I think Frosty has covered about all I was going to suggest. You grandfathers forge looks really nice and it makes me happy to see it being used. A couple of questions on the forge. In the second picture, is that an ash dump for cleaning it out? The other is how do you control the air blast from the electric blower?

I really like your candle holder.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[Daswulf]

Candle holder looks nice. Good work. 

I do like my bottom blast forge. Like you said, trusty go to. For people using charcoal I suggest a side blast. For coke and coal (I use coal) I prefer a bottom blast forge. Side blast can burn any solid fuel but there is always a trade off to performance. What fuel Did your grandfather burn in it? 

I know in my bottom blast forge I can easily poke out any obstructions in the air blast (tuyere) if my fire is weaker. I havnt used a side blast as much to know the tricks but like I mentioned they are solid forges but it is likely an air feed blockage. 

[George N. M.]

Kogut, don't take my caution about the KKK letters too seriously.  It would be like my initials, GNM, being associated with some neo-Nazi group in Poland.  I agree with Frosty that a lot of folk these days look for something to be offended by and complain about.  Social media hasn't helped.  I have to feel sorry for folk whose only apparent pleasure in life is being offended and letting the world know. I just didn't want to see you unkowingly walk into that mine field.

G

[Brian Hibbert]

Personally, I'd be inclined to keep my initials as my screen name and would call out the idiots who conflate unrelated things and become offended.

I DO appreciate Kogut's efforts to not offend though.  Welcome aboard!

[Kogut]

Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Hi. About the forge: there is no ash dump, ashes and clinker collect on the bottom of the forge. Tuyere is about 1 1/2 inches above the bottom. And for the other question I cannot control the airflow. This forge was originally using a bellow which was replaced by electric blower. 

Daswulf I still got some of the old fuel. Also coke but in really big pieces. Sometimes I break it down and mix with my coke to get rid of it eventually and gain some free space in the shop. But the problem comes and goes with both old and new fuel. 

Brian Hibbett. And I think You would be right. But our time on this planet is really limited so let's spend it working hard, learning, creating and being with our families and friends. Every minute we fight over some [nonsense] is a minute we're never getting back.

Thanks for your input Everyone. I will use your advice next time I'm in the shop, hopefully tomorrow.

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Mod34
Edited for inappropriate language

[Scott NC]

5 hours ago, Brian Hibbert said:

call out the idiots who conflate unrelated things and become offended.

  That is one broad sweeping, judgemetal statement.  

[Frosty]

Makes a lot of assumptions like, oh say, cultural differences.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mod34]

MOD NOTE:

A central theme of I Forge Iron is mutual respect for all the members of our community. That includes not causing each other offense, either intentionally or unintentionally. George N. M. acted appropriately in warning Kogut about a possible issue, and Kogut is to be commended for his promptness in modifying his username appropriately rather than risking offense.

The issue is closed.

[Scott NC]

Nothing directly about Kogut was on my mind or in my comment.  

[Kogut]

Let's take it easy guys. As mentioned above the issue is closed. 

[JHCC]

Getting back to your forge, Kogut, there are a lot of good discussions on the forum about side-blast forges, many within the context of discussions of the low-tech, low-cost JABOD forges (short for Just A Box Of Dirt). As noted there, you're not going to find a clinker-breaker or ash dump in such a forge; clinkers are usually hooked out as necessary, and ash usually ends up as part of the dirt fill.

5 hours ago, Kogut said:

I cannot control the airflow. This forge was originally using a bellow which was replaced by electric blower. 

Well, there's your problem! You absolutely must control the airflow, or you will continue to face major issues. With an electric blower, there are two options: control the motor, and control the air entering the forge. Controlling the motor can be tricky (depending on the motor), but controlling the air going into the forge is fairly easy. Adding a simple gate valve to the air pipe will allow you to adjust the amount of air passing through into the forge, and that will give you control over the size of your fire.

Here's a valve I made from some scraps of wood I had kicking around: 

 

This worked great, and cost me nothing but a little time. 

[Frosty]

We weren't talking about you Kogut, just the disturbing trend for folk to look for things to take offense at. My initials have a pretty obscene alternative to my name. I used to use them when I played more video games as it tended to distract my competitors. I had a job that kept me in the field about 3/4 of the time and in many places in Alaska the only place to get a sit down hot meal was a tavern or bar with their usual choice of video games.

Not controlling your blast is almost undoubtedly the issue, as John says! There are a number of good ways to control it, one comes in handy if your forge hood doesn't draw smoke well. Putting a bypass behind the fireback aimed up the stack will divert excess blast up the chimney and help draw the smoke out through induction. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[George N. M.]

I agree with John and Frosty, it is likely that your problem is uncontrolled air flow.  You can control this with some sort of moveable gate or valve in the path of the air from the blower to the forge or a rheostat to control the speed of the motor driving the blower.  You can make a simple gate which when fully or partially closed spills part of the air flow out of the normal air path or you can use what is sometimes called a butterfly valve which is a moveable disk, pivoted in the middle, in the air pipe which allows all or a part of the air flow to pass depending on its orientation.  Similar valves are used in wood stove pipes and automobile carburetors.

Start your fire with a fairly gentle air flow and increase it as the fire gets established and hotter.  Vary the amount of air depending on the size of metal you have in the fire, the larger the more air.  Be carful about not over heating smaller pieces.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

28 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

a rheostat to control the speed of the motor driving the blower

Depending on the kind of motor. 

[bluerooster]

I'm wondering if the OP found the trouble with his forge. He mentioned that there was some coke left that his grandpa used, and that it was rather large chunks.

I wonder how his grandpa used that coke. Did he break it up into smaller pieces, or us it as is?  Could that have a bearing on his problem?