Help/Advice Needed on a Sculpture Project

[Ian]

Hi all, I'm hoping that some of you chaps (and chappesses) might be able to help with a project/idea that my Boss is trying to plan and price out.

He makes sculpture from wire mesh and has in the past created a series of flat panels using acid etching based on photo's of the 3D figures (you can see the type of work he does at Information). These panels are no thicker than 0.7mm (because of the problems of etching thicker panels) but David wants to see if the idea can be scaled up into LARGE pieces (several meters tall and wide). I've already done a bit of digging around and two technologies came up as possibles. Waterjet Cutting and Laser cutting, I've discounted laser cutting because of HAZ and thickness/quality of cut which leaves water jet as the leading contender. However because of the complexity of the converted cad files and number of cuts most of the companies I've spoken to won't even offer a quote on the work, the one that did quoted over

Edited September 2, 2008 by Ian

[NateDJ]

Can you buy pre-made wire mesh and form it? Should be able to do it with expanded metal if that 'look' was acceptable to the artist. Other than that and for prototyping you could use wire mesh fencing, it is just wire that is welded at each corner is a square mesh, and I have seen it at a hardware store in as small as 1/4'' mesh, you should be able to special order a much smaller mesh from a fencing supplier.

[Makoz]

I've done a few public commissions using laser cut stainless as well as aluminium. Besides the cost of converting CAD files (which shouldn't be there if I'd learn to use a CAD program myself!), the expense seems to lie with the cutting of holes. The machine has to stop and start again, obviously. Each "insertion" costs $$$, so if you are cutting a lot of holes, which your mesh is, that equals a heck of lot of money! The technology seems to be suited more to continuous cuts, in multiples. Can the holes be linked in a more continuous flow, ie strips of holes?
I would agree with Nate, use a commercial mesh and shape panels which can to be joined later. Is there a possibility of joining each panel to a formed rod or bar, on the seam line?

Good luck

[azIRonSmith]

Are they using the etching to actually do the cutting and not make the mesh itself? In the video it looks like regular hardware screen and the cutting was done via scissors.

It sounds like for $$$ and time sake, laying out and cutting the larger material (i.e. expanded mesh/metal) with cutting discs/sheet metal sheers/hand plasma cutting maybe more cost effective and probably quicker for actual delivery. You could use the CAD plans and just print out the shapes as templates to lay on top of the mesh to show the lines. At the larger sizes, the exactness of the cut down to the mm is not as critical as those smaller sculptures he did.

Using hammers with dollies as most sheet metal body shop pros have done for decades is probably how the shaping could be done. In the video, that's basically what the artist in the video is doing. He's just using his hands and small tools as hammers/benders and dollies. Add in an Oxy/Acetylene rosebud torch to heat areas on the big metal to help them bend/stretch/shrink and anneal the metal and you would have a fairly complete method.

This is all fairly standard metal sculpture methodology.

If you have ever looked at some of the bodywork (no pun intended, okay maybe a little) that guys like Ron Covell and others have done, the curves and shapes are very much like human forms. Intentionally so in many cases.

Hope this gives you a few useful ideas.

[Ian]

Perhaps I should clarify, I'm not tasked to replicate the 3D meshwork that David does on a much larger scale but rather the flat panels. They are about 40cm by 80cm and under a mm thick stailess steel. David wants to scale up that flat panel idea dramatically. Now if they are to be mounted to a base for the sake of safety I realise that the panel needs to be significantly thicker in order to prevent flex (I have to plan for them being outdoors for example) so I narrowed my options down to water jet cutting for the precision and depth of cuts possible. That would in fact work I'm sure but the cost/time factor makes it a harder sell by far.
I'm trying to find an alernative to waterjet that doesn't have the same cost/time problems.

[bipolarandy]

I dont want to sound like a broken record, but have you thought about buying commercial SS mesh and manipulating it to get the desired look, for instance, Rolling or selective planishing might get a more organic look. I cant imagine it'd cost more than 20,000 pounds.

[Ian]

Andy,
thanks for the suggestion but I cannot use actual mesh of any decription, these are FLAT panels, the mesh look is entirely down to the acid etching which burns out the holes. Looks like a mesh from a distance but ISNT a mesh. This idea needs to be replicated but on a larger scale. Acid etchings no good because it would undercut to an unnaceptable degree on thicker material so I left with finding a way to get the same look on the larger plate.
I'm only really worried about serious thickness of plate on base mounted pieces and have a perfectly useable idea for hung pieces, but I want to be able to cover all the base as it were :D

[John B]

Hi Ian, Spark erosion?

[ThomasPowers]

Ian, the mesh comes in Flat panels too, Flat doesn't mean no holes; I think what you are trying to say is you need to start with solid sheet and then selectively create holes and I am afraid you will not find an easy cheap fast method to do so.

Most of the high tech methods require a starter hole or charge more to create such a hole as it's harder on the equipment.

[Glenn]

Can you use expanded plate? The stuff that has a diamond shaped hole in the metal? Comes in 4 x 8 and 12 feet, but is something like 1/8 inch thick.

[bipolarandy]

hmmm, to what degree does the pattern on the panel matter? Because I have another idea, what about setting up a punch press and punching the holes manually , It wouldn't be the fastest but it would be cheap'er, If it must be exzactly like the 3D cad drawing then its waterjet for you

[NateDJ]

Hmmm... are the holes different sizes and different places on the sheet? For some reason the name of the art form escapes me, but the use of different size dots causes the form to appear darker or lighter in areas that need it.
If this is the case could you use a cnc machine that has a travel table the size of the plate to be ''carved'' and simply program it to cut all the holes the same size at once then change bits and go again?
The web is full of DIY cnc machines which can be made for about $2,000-3,000 usd and would allow you to create what you are needing. Google DIY CNC machines for more info on these things.

[Ian]

Thanks to all for chipping in.

Nate, yes the holes in the plate are all different sizes/shapes and in different places and thats exactly what fools the eye into seeing a 3D 'mesh' image (even the shadow appears 3D too) on a totally flat surface.

I'd forgotten about spark erosion John, ( even though Moony first told me about it and it's use in die making. Doh!) I'll have to do some digging on it's cost/time vs waterject. Thanks for jogging that memory it's possibly a good avenue.

As much as the idea of building a CNC machine appeals to me (and those of you who know me understand it REALLY appeals) I doubt I could sell the idea to David, the studio isn't big enough for starters and my understanding is he wants this to be something that can be entirely done out of house appart from installation. Apparently my time is more valuable spent working on the figures he makes and all the other in house technical work, this particular project fell into my Technical Consultant/ Ideas Man drawer on the workbench.

I pride myself on finding solutions to problems and this ones a nice challenge, (for instance I'd even looked at sand casting as a possibility for this project and I've still not entirely discounted it either as I've seen foam patterns used that burn out as the metals poured) so please feel free to offer up an idea.

Thanks to all again who have thus far

Edited September 4, 2008 by Ian

[NateDJ]

WOW ... so those pictures are of flat panels not formed sculpture? That would be really neat to see in person! Best of luck to you!

[Ian]

The one posted on this thread is a flat panel, most of his work is 3D but some of the ones on Davids site are listed as panels or 'limited editions'. From a photo they're virtually impossible to spot next to true 3D piece

Edited September 4, 2008 by Ian

[azIRonSmith]

Okay. I get what yer talking about now. You want a flat panel that has holes in it to simulate the 3D sculptures. I guess I watched the video thinking he just wanted to scale up the 3D sculptures with bigger mesh. When we say "holes", we really mean multi-shaped holes not just round holes.

I can understand why the CNC cutting shops quoted so much. That's alot of intricate hole cutting on a very large panel(s).

Another thought would be to not use metal as the base but a plastic or vinyl base cut with a vinyl cutting printer or even hand cut after laying out the design on the plastic sheet. Since the panels will be "supersized", the hand cutting may not be too difficult. Just time consuming. You could either use a metallic looking vinyl or paint a metallic paint on it to look like metal although I think a black paint/plastic maybe better for contrast.

This of course means you will need your panel frame to do most of the structural holding. Assuming these panels are indoors (i.e. no wind/rain/weather), this might be an option.

I have another thought which would involve liquid plastics that would be used as "ink" to "print" those panels too. Hmmm liquid JB weld as "ink"...

If it's for an outside exhibit then you would probable need to do it in metal and have a strong framing system to boot.

As I've heard before, you can have it cheap, good, or fast. Choose any two!!!

[Hofi]

Ian
u can use the mesh that is used to reenforce concret they have squer or rectangle holes 150x 150 mm or smaller or bigger .
They are coming in 3x4 or 5 or 6 meters.
If u take three of those of 5/16 or 8 mm steel wire .put them together
u get the body and the strangth and by mooving them u get different holes
size weld them together and the u can cut the form u want
hope it helps
hofi

[sfDuck]

Ian try using a tiny straw and a mouthful of water............ Works in my tunes      (good to hear from you, keep yer anvil ringin mate)

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I can't see the pictures. All I see is an empty box. So my answer may not be right for your application.

My friend does wire mesh sculptures that mimic crosshatch drawings. This is all done with standard expanded steel , cut and layered.

Water jet, thick parts, but slow

Laser , fastest, thinner materials

Plasma, fast, and up to 1"

Oxy/Act, very thick, slower, less expensive

EDM/wire EDM, slooooooow, very expensive

CNC turret punch press, fast but you have to work within the confines of available punch shapes

 

[jeremy k]

This original post is from 2008  - think the project is far long gone.