Does my old Fisher have significant sale value?

[Gravydavy]

I have a somewhat beat-up Fisher that weighs about 114 lbs according to the bathroom scale and has 1883 cast into it. I took a flap wheel and wire cup brush to it to clean off the worst scaly rust. I know that's not an approved method, but I wanted to see what was really there. I realize that doing so may have considerably harmed any collector value.

Before I go further, I'm curious to know what I could reasonably expect to sell it for if I decided to do so. And by that, I mean what will any of you offer me for it including shipping. I'm not interested in eBay or Craigslist. I don't want to destroy a valuable, desirable and useful old anvil, but I want a tool that will work well for me. The photos don't show the horn and apron, but they are fully intact and surprisingly smooth given the waviness and pitting of the top. I think previous owners used it pretty hard but weren't ham-fisted morons. I have previously posted other photos if anyone cares to dig them up.

If it's not particularly valuable, I'm considering flattening the top considerably via milling and grinding to make it more suitable for my intended use. I know that the hard layer isn't really thick, but it appears to be sufficient to allow skimming off about 1/16th without irretrievably weakening the hard layer. 

My body is well past the point of hoping to become a skilled blacksmith with the attendant thousands of hours of hammer time, so I'm looking at this as more of a pragmatic appliance or a metalworking dilettante. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to forge heavy iron, but that's only one of many things I'd love to be able to do that my body will no longer allow. Playing guitar, riding fast motorcycles, art photography, fine woodworking, seducing beautiful wealthy grateful young women...

Those are not really realistic goals at this point. I shake too much and my joints are in really lousy shape. And I am interested in about a thousand more pursuits than I can possibly even try.

I might still be able to do some light, decorative metalworking, maybe some jewelry, straightening small welded pieces cold and other blacksmithing heresy. For that, I would want a flat, smooth top with as little texture as possible. Given the eye-watering cost of a suitably heavy chunk of flat, hard, smooth tool steel these days to provide an equivalent work surface, milling the top might be my best bet if the whole anvil is only worth a couple hundred bucks. So, what do you think?

Let the flaming and casting of stones begin.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I have quite a few anvils and honestly I use them as they are no matter the project,

chips, nicks, chunks ect… I’m prone buyin beat up anvils 

I occasionally will work heavy steel on them but mostly just small light projects with no issues,

I don’t see any reason to mill that anvil, I would just start using it personally, 

you don’t really need anything flat or sharp edged to work on in my opinion,

you just need somthin to work on! Lol

as far as value goes in my area it wouldn’t bring but a dollar or two a pound, but In California it might bring $6-$7 a pound

I’m not sure what the goin rate is in Virginia but I’d still personally leave it as is an use it till you find something you like better!

[Gravydavy]

I may not have gotten a point across. My body isn't currently up to any serious blacksmithing. Maybe someday it will get better (yeah, right), but at the moment I'm thinking of a different approach. I'm more likely to be working small pieces of copper, brass or aluminum cold. A year or three ago I would probably have tried to find a nice flat, square smooth chunk of hard steel with straight edges and smooth, small radius corners to use as an anvil. But the local scrapyards no longer sell to individuals, and new tool steel costs crazy money, and I've only got so much time to try to work out the ideal solution for an anvil.

Is this anvil valuable enough to justify me spending a bunch of time and money finding a different solution than flattening and squaring it up for my expected usage?

BTW, just for perspective, regardless of what makes pragmatic sense, I'm currently building a steel anvil stand based on a central 4" steel pipe, 1/2 inch plate and 2" square 1/4" wall diagonal braces, with a concrete base. I just don't think I'll be doing much if any traditional forging of hot iron. (Do the forum rules require consistency?)

Edited May 25, 2022 by Mod30
Excessive quoting

[George N. M.]

I'm not going to flame you but I do think that it is unwise and unnecessary to mill anything off the face of a decent anvil.  If you really need a dead level surface mill it off a piece of scrap from your local salvage/scrap yard rather than reducing the utility and value of your anvil.

It is your property and you can do with it as you will but IMO it is illogical and wasteful. 

I think I speak for most of the folk here who have a collective blacksmithing experience counted in centuries.  If you care to ignore that advice it is your choice but that strikes me as being contrarian just to be contrarian rather than weighing other folks' opinions and relevant experience into your decision.

I do hope that you reconsider your plan.

GNM

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

What happened to Glenn's suggestion to weld a hardy stem to a piece of square flat steel to use for exactly what you are saying in this thread about tinkering with small items. Kill 2 birds with one anvil and when it's time to sell the Fisher, you or your heirs will get more for it as it is now than you would if you ruin it by milling the face flat with sharp edges.

[Gravydavy]

50 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

I'm not going to flame you but I do think that it is unwise and unnecessary to mill anything off the face of a decent anvil. It is your property and you can do with it as you will but IMO it is illogical and wasteful. 

I have a chunk of railroad iron that I could mill and grind flat after cutting the broken ends off (It was broken for scrap, and so has bent, distorted ends). I would need to take off something like 1/2 inch of work-hardened curved surface. It would probably take several days to do so. Taking about 1/16 inch off the Fisher would likely do what I have in mind in a couple of hours. So the question is, which makes more sense? I'm not some kind of metalworking Philistine. If the Fisher has some particular value, I'm open to leaving it alone. But I have observed a tendency on some forums for folks to advocate *somebody else* spending a bunch of time or money to preserve something that the forum folks think should be preserved.

So. How many hours and dollars are you willing to put into making me an alternative anvil in order to keep the Fisher in it's current condition? (Not a real challenge. Just a bit of perspective. We're all prone to armchair quarterbacking, myself definitely included).

21 minutes ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

What happened to Glenn's suggestion to weld a hardy stem to a piece of square flat steel to use for exactly what you are saying in this thread about tinkering with small items. Kill 2 birds with one anvil and when it's time to sell the Fisher, you or your heirs will get more for it as it is now than you would if you ruin it by milling the face flat with sharp edges.

That's not a bad idea, and I'd kinda forgotten about it. So maybe I should rephrase as "Is this Fisher worth the trouble of my widow trying to sell it?". I'm actually curious about a fair market value.

But I'm also not convinced that taking 1/16" off the top and edges would "ruin" it. If it's not particularly valuable as-is, dressing the surface and edges might make it a much better tool for lighter, more detailed work. I wouldn't want to do that if it's particularly rare and irreplaceable, but if it's just another old farmer's anvil, it might be a different story. Just spitballing.

BTW, everything I've done with it so far has not removed more than a few thousandths of intact steel. If I were to remove the Fluid Film and leave it in a horse barn again, in ten years it would be hard to tell that I'd touched it.

[Gravydavy]

And then again, I've previously tried using a chunk of mild steel for working soft metals, and it dented and rounded surprisingly badly. So I wonder how much a chunk of hard-enough without post-heat treat but easily weldable steel would cost. Say 1"x4"x4". Would 4140 prehard do it? There is so much about this stuff that I don't know.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Either 4130 or 4140 would work just fine.

[Gravydavy]

And I've noticed that nobody has hazarded a guess at answering my original question, so I'll rephrase it: If I were to offer the anvil for sale on this forum, what would be a fair selling price? What would YOU pay for it?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I forget how much it weighs.

[Gravydavy]

According to my cheap electronic bathroom scale, about 114lbs. The anvil is marked 10 (stone? pennyweight? I don't know.).

[Frosty]

That isn't really an answerable question, the forum is world wide, something like 150 countries and the value of anything varies greatly. Here, in Alaska in that condition it might fetch as much as $800 but in Indiana or other mid west state, maybe $150-200. 

What is it you need a flat face so badly you're willing to damage a perfectly useful anvil? What non ferrous metals are you hammering? How large? 

Higher carbon steels like 4140 cost like the dickens here, shipping about doubles most prices and that was before the current sky rocketing inflation. Still about the 3rd. oil tool machine shop I called sold me a 4140 drop from a 9"dia round 4.5" thick. It was too small for anything they made so it was sitting in the maybe useful bur probably off to the scrapper area. They sold it for $20, didn't even weigh it. 

That isn't the only machine shop happy to sell drops at or below scrap prices, one in Anchorage is very generous with drops IF you're willing to let the owner bend your ear for a while. He's made a few donations to the club just because we're using the steel not melting it in China.

Making a bottom tool for your anvil is easy and can be any shape you like. A sledge hammer head as found at probably one in three yard, garage, etc. sales every weekend for a couple dollars makes a perfectly serviceable anvil. 

You keep saying ONLY 1/16" like that isn't 50-75 years of hard use gone for an idea that . . . Nevermind.

It's your anvil, no bruisers are going to show up to dissuade you, we aren't gong shun you if you decide to hang out here with us. Do with it as you wish. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

Mr. David:  I don't know if I qualify as a "forum folk" (probably).  But when offering an opinion I try to project what I would do and how much time or money I would put into something before I offer a suggestion.

If work hardening on a piece of RR track is a problem you can do one of 2 things:  1) you can build a fire and throw the rail in and let it heat up.  Once the fire has gone out and the rail cooled it will be nicely annealed and soft.  2) you can flip it over and mill the bottom to give you a flat surface and mount it upside down.  My experience is that work hardening on rail does not penetrate very deeply into the metal.  That is, of course, dependant on the use it was in on the railroad.  Something on a main line that saw dozens of heavy freights or coal trains across it daily will be more work hardened than something on a side track.

As to value:  That is area dependant but I would guess that $300-400 might be a fair market value.  Maybe more if there is more demand.  Check ebay and craigs list to see what folk are asking for similar items in your area.   I honestly have no idea of the demand or market for anvils in SW VA.  I doubt that price or demand will decline over time.  It should kieep its value and probably outpace inflation.

Also, many of us here are a decade or more older than you and have the infirmities that come with age and injuries and are certainly aware of our, and probably your, physical limitations.  I don't think many of us elders do much heavy hammer and anvil work.  I know I don't.  Much of my work is tapping and tinking with a 2 lb. hammer than really whacking with a big sledge.

Again, your call, you know what's best for you, but if you want my blessing for milling off the top it will not be forthcoming.

Cheers.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Gravydavy]

Guys, I promise I'm not trolling. But I'm having a bit of trouble. Ever since I started looking at anvils a couple of decades ago, I got the impression that Fisher was a utilitarian "farmer's" anvil, like what might have been sold from the Sears Roebuck & Co. catalog. Reasonably respectable quality, but still a consumable tool, to be used and modified for the task at hand, just like a sledge hammer or a digging bar. I never got an impression that they were collectible, rare or special in any way, and I didn't think they were particularly valuable on the resale market.

For perspective, I'm a retired auto mechanic. I view tools as items to be used to complete a job. Use them, modify them, destroy them if the job calls for it and will pay for them. They are just tools, and the manufacturers make more every day. (Or that's what I tell myself. But keep your hands off my 32 oz Lixie bronze hammer).

So if the Fisher anvil is worth $200 as-is, isn't rare, and can be easily replaced for the same money, should I worry about reducing it's value 25%?

OTOH, if it is actually special, I don't want to screw it up further. History counts for something. 

Hey George, I appreciate the reply. You bring up another reason to work with the Fisher instead of the RR track. If I have to mill off 1/2" and anneal the steel to do that, I now have a soft, flattish piece of not very massive steel. Or I can mill/grind off 1/2" of arguably work-hardened steel and end up with a not very massive piece of steel of uncertain hardness. Working with the Fisher makes more sense to me unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise.  

[Gravydavy]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

What is it you need a flat face so badly you're willing to damage a perfectly useful anvil? What non ferrous metals are you hammering? How large? 

Why do anvil manufacturers bother grinding faces flat in the first place instead of leaving the full thickness to maximize wear life? Why do we dress hammer faces? Because we want to control the metal of the workpiece, and not have to fight needless bumps and dimples from rough tool surfaces.

It's an anvil. A working tool that exists to provide a suitable surface to shape metal against. Many craftsmen would be rightly aghast at trying to do good work on an abused, dented, pitted and chipped surface unless they had no other choice. There's a reason that we no longer use rocks as hammers and anvils. Sure, such damage can be worked around and sometimes even used to advantage, but come on, guys, it's not the Holy of Holies. It's steel. It's a tool. It's meant to be made use of, taken care of, repaired if it makes sense and replaced if it doesn't. It will wear and get damaged. Respect it, but don't worship it.

And Frosty, you are very fortunate to have local machine shops that will give you tool steel drops for chatting with the owner. Around here, we have very few machine shops at all and I haven't found any that hand out free material.

Again, is my Fisher so rare or valuable that it would be some kind of sin to dress the working face? Would smiths of 50-75 years ago have hesitated to dress the face of their anvil in order to do better work even if it meant their grandchildren might have to replace or reface the anvil eventually?

[Frosty]

Fishers aren't being made anymore IIRC they haven't been made since the early 1960s. They may not be that rare but they are coveted because they're quiet. The face is NOT work hardened it's properly heat treated, hardened and tempered. RR rail is induction hardened to a depth of a few thousandths, the subsequent work hardening is a little deeper. Rail is hardened for wear resistance otherwise rail has been normalized when made so it remains flexible. Hard means more brittle and thousands of laden rail car rolling over it daily WILL flex it. You want it to bend and spring back, not work harden and break.

Anyway. What makes a Fisher special is it's hardened and tempered high carbon steel foundry welded to the cast iron body. The process of successfully getting high carbon steel to weld to molten cast iron was involved and patented. 

The little bit of wear our anvil has on her isn't a thing, she has a couple generations of working life left. 

However seeing as you're the kind of mechanic that views tools as disposables then you probably wouldn't appreciate good tools. It's a shame that fine old lady fell into your hands, it's a sad day for a good tool. Do what you want. I've nothing more to say.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Gravydavy]

There seems to be a common knee-jerk reaction on this forum to say "Thou shalt not attempt to smooth the face of thine anvil for fear of precipitating the Forge-Demon Apocalypse". Maybe there was a traumatic period when hordes of barbaric fiends dragged pristine Peddinghaus anvils the length of Rte 66, but I'm not proposing that.

OK, that was over the top. But in all of the replies to my anvil questions, there has not been one that said it was even OK for me to remove the scale from the face of my anvil. And there have been a number that intimated I was risking ruining my anvil by taking a flap wheel to the face. Some of this seems a bit silly to me.

Am I wrong?

[George N. M.]

OK, if everyone is expressing the opinion not to do something does that mean that everyone is unreasonable or that it is a good idea anyway?

Hey, a little respect and gratitude for us going out of our way and spending our time to give you the benefit of our collective experience would go a long way.  It is sounding like you just want to argue with a near unanimous opinion just for the sake of argument.  Maybe you are a troll, even if you don't know it.

We have all seen perfectly good tools, anvils included, ruined by folk who through ignorance or over confidence decided that they knew best.  

You're going to do what you want.  So, why ask us if you know our advice is going to be contrary to your intentions?

We've given you the benfit or our experience.  Follow it or not.  It's no skin off our noses.

'Nuff said.

[Gravydavy]

Hey folks,

I'm still not used to how the quote and reply functions work on this forum. It looks like some of my replies got rolled into quotes that I didn't mean to quote, if that makes any sense.

Hey Glenn, is there some way to fix that?

And again, folks, I promise I am not a troll. I clearly have opinions that don't match those of some of the respected posters here, but that doesn't mean I don't respect their viewpoints. It just means that I have a different viewpoint. I hope we can continue discussing subjects that we don't always agree on.

[Glenn]

The quote feature collects what you highlight and turns into into a quote.  You can then edit the quote to additionally include or cut out what you want in the quote.

To make your post, scroll down below the quote to make the post.  This does not then include it as part of the quote. 

[Gravydavy]

I don't think I've been highlighting anything, but quotes seem to keep being dragged along with my replies. Probably my error. I'll keep trying. My apologies to everyone for any confusion that may have ensued.

[Gravydavy]

So, guys, I think I still don't understand how the reply and quote functions work here. I've never run into anything like this on any other forum. It's different here.

Please let me reiterate: Just because I may disagree and argue a different view doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. I've seen too many differences of perspective turn into anger. I don't want that. All too often it's just that folks assumed a meaning that wasn't intended. Good communication can be really hard, and I'm not at all great at it. I tend to be a sarcastic xxxxxxxx. But my wife says I'm OK for a boy.

[Glenn]

A discussion makes the original question more specific which results in a more specific answer.  The site encourages differences of opinions and discussions as long as they are done in a respectful manner.

[Gravydavy]

Boy, this has gone sideways, and I have definitely contributed to it. Please let me try again:

One part of my question amounts to "How much could I sell it for on this forum?". (Note: I'm not looking to sell it, just trying to get an idea of what it's worth to help me decide how to proceed toward having the tools that work for me). Does $200-$300 seem reasonable? That would be my guess.

The other part was "If it's not worth much, and it's not rare, is there a good reason why I shouldn't mill/dress the top?) The universal response has amounted to "Don't you dare do that!" OK, I get that it's agreed that I shouldn't do that, but I'm still not sure why. On all kinds of machine tools it's normal maintenance to resurface working parts. To my mind, by definition the high spots are the parts that aren't being used, so why not skim them down a bit to even out the working surface in order to get more usable flat space, especially for work where surface finish is important? Maybe the question could be rephrased as "How thin is too thin, and how flat is flat enough? I'm leaning toward flatter, but I'm definitely open to other opinions, especially if backed up with solid reasoning.

With all due respect, most of the replies so far have run awfully close to "Because we've always done it this way" or "Don't question your elders". 

Contrary to some comments, I have by no means made up my mind. I won't do anything to the face until I am convinced it's a good idea. I am fully aware that I can't readily put the metal back on. On the other hand, if taking some bumps off and creating useful flat spots makes it work better for me, I'm willing to do that. Please, folks - don't just tell me "Don't do that!". Explain why it's a bad or good idea for the way I expect to use the anvil. Maybe I'm wrong, and it's rare or historically valuable. Maybe there is a history of the faces cracking after dressing. Maybe I'm just one of those annoying people who just has to understand "Why?"

Geeze, that sounds like a homework assignment. Didn't mean it that way.

Once more, I do not mean to be a troll or disrespect the folks who have replied. I apologize if I have come across that way when questioning or disagreeing. I just have a really hard time letting go of a question until the solution sinks in. And sometimes I miss the answer that's right in front of me. 

[Jobtiel1]

The thing is, you don't need a flat anvil face, a crowned anvil face is often preferred by smiths because less metal is touching the anvil to cool it down. It seems you have no intention of doing any hot forging, the next owner might, and by milling of the surface of the anvil you take of a considerable part of the hardened face, which means that there is much less life left in the anvil. furthermore, for straightening welded stuff or copper stuff you don't need a flawless surface. for jewelry you probably want a polished face, what do you think happens to that polished face when hammering cold steel on it? thus I doubt milling the anvil is the solution here. I suggest you make an anvil block with a polished face for jewelry, and use the anvil as is for all other tasks, and after using it for a year or 2, you might find you really need that flat face (again, I doubt it), and at least you can make an informed decision about it.

Reading through this thread makes me think you're still going to do it though.

~Jobtiel