German anvils -AMA

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

21 hours ago, Frf said:

This is how Refflinghaus sends their anvils, this is the gold standard for anvils.

Boy howdy!

You’d have a heart attack if you saw the edges of any of my anvils  lol

It’s really interesting that you like yours so sharp, It sounds like it would be fun to watch y’all at work in the smithy!

personally i buy an use, VERY used an abused anvils of various manufacturers, none I’ve ever drug home has had sharp edges by a long shot, but they seem to work well for me,

but like Jerry imma hobby smith also not a professional smith

I always figured hardy tools are cheap and easy to make when I need a sharp clean edge for a project

[ThomasPowers]

I tell folks that there is only ONE right way to do a task in blacksmithing and that is: "Any Way That Works!"

FRF; please tell me about your experiences forging H-13 at a white hot heat.

 

[yesteryearforge]

What size radius do you consider too much ?

[Frf]

10 hours ago, Frosty said:

Do you work tool steel at white heat? Or are you working wrought iron?

No, tool steel, spring steel and carbon steels are not worked at white heat. We work mild steel at white heat.

 

Have you worked on an anvil with intact edges?

Yes, hammer control is the foundation of professional forging. Not missing your hammer blows is the whole point.

We would enjoy the visit. Please visit our website, instagram, and youtube channel and visit us by proxy if you cannot visit in person

https://youtube.com/channel/UCi_7z6G3FeD8hwpdKWywVVg
 

https://instagram.com/fraserriverforge?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

We are glad that you treat anvils with respect and expect the same of others.

Setting shoulders into what? There are countless items that need different shoulders with different radii. Some shoulders need to be so sharp that you use a chisel to define the shoulder like a halflap joint in a window grill.

Would this be applicable to a knife or machine part with a dynamic load, no.

We appreciate the time you have taken to composing an in-depth and thoughtful post. We love the opportunity to both learn and share our knowledge.

We do not take offence and hope to give none.

 

5 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

I tell folks that there is only ONE right way to do a task in blacksmithing and that is: "Any Way That Works!"

FRF; please tell me about your experiences forging H-13 at a white hot heat.

There is a proper way according to professional training. What is your experience level and what kind of training do you have?

No, H-13 is not forged at white heat as per our previous post.

4 hours ago, yesteryearforge said:

What size radius do you consider too much ?

We wouldn’t add a radius to any anvil, the factory edge on a Refflinghaus is about 1/8” radius with a 45° chamfer. This is the same on the 1960’s Peddinghaus and PFP anvils we have in new condition.

[Frf]

Take a look at this video at 2:43, this is why you want a sharp edge to your anvil

-Josh

 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Well I have been forging for 41 years now; came into it from bladesmithing, I spent a year apprenticed to a professional swordsmith whose Father was a research Metallurgist---so we worked some interesting alloys and had a computerized custom built vertical heat treat furnace with inert atmosphere to get the best from them.

I'm more into historical reproduction work now as a hobby, in particular pre 1600 AD; though as I have just retired my smithy will need to be a bit more self supporting and so some more "local" items will need to get into the mix.  I may have to make some of the Scappi items over again as I just learned that the Renaissance Cook I had leant some of my reproductions to has passed and I may not get them back.  Oh Well, I have quite a bit of real wrought iron and may redo some of them as accurately as possible.

I've worked for several Internationally known research institutions in IT: Bell Labs, National Radio Astronomy Observatory, New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technologies as well as DELL.  At NRAO I worked on the ALMA project being built  in Chile in association with the European Southern Observatory headquartered in Garching Germany and so had many German colleagues and I am used to their "positive viewpoints"---we had friends who  came over to here for the ALMA project and I remember that after 6 years he actually admitted that my wife might be right about something they were discussing!

[Frf]

A pleasure to make your acquaintance Thomas, it is helpful for us to know the audience with whom we are speaking.

What kind of work did you do in your smithy? Was this a full-time occupation? 
Have you read Die Kunstschlosserei by Max Metzger?

-Josh

[Frosty]

15 hours ago, Frf said:

Have you worked on an anvil with intact edges?

Yes, hammer control is the foundation of professional forging. Not missing your hammer blows is the whole point.

Yes, my go to anvil is a 125lb. Soderfors, Sorceress and has sharp edges in places on both sides and the step. I'd happily match her rebound against any anvil you own, it's in excess of 95% by eye against a scale. She has some edge chipping but it doesn't get in the way.

The way a sharper edge is used in the video you linked is to isolate the working mass for later separation and so is pretty irrelevant to setting shoulders. Isn't it? It's also HARDLY cutting. What are they making? I like the forms and look.

Of course hammer control is THE necessary skill but nobody is perfect, at least nobody working at an anvil. Sharp hard edges are much more vulnerable to missed blows than chamfered or better radiused edges. A 1/8" radius is nearly perfect, more isn't really necessary unless you have ham handed folks working on it. 

Even so, your main anvil shows a number of chips, some look to have been sanded or stoned smooth to prevent their spread. 

My Trenton has taken more damage before I bought it and the edges were "repaired" and poorly ground. Too many folks haven't been taught how to use a disk grinder properly and whip it back and forth rather than let it do it's job. That typically means welded and ground edges have a slight bevel from the face and aren't 90* to the sides. At least the "repair" was done with an appropriate welding rod, it's not brittle. 

I'm WAY more likely to let beginners use her than my Sorceress until they've demonstrated some restraint and control.

My Father was a metal spinner and machinist and I grew up surrounded by precision instruments and equipment and their care and feeding. I knew how to step drill holes and how to sharpen drill bits before I was 10. When I finally got to take my first shop class in jr. high (middle school) I was better at sharpening drill bits and lathe cutters than the instructor. 

So yes I'm serious about not abusing my tools and have a heck of a time holding my tongue when I see other people's abused. The only worse shop sin in my books is a disregard for safety. I've 86ed guys for telling me not to worry or it's okay, when I tell them not to do something dangerous. May not get a second chance where safety is concerned, depends.

A couple years ago I was approached by a school for special needs children about giving them a little shop time and they all were interested i forging a sword. I'm more than happy for the opportunity but the RULES apply. PERIOD. The kids were great, told them up front what the rules were and the consequences for violations and that if I YELL it's not because they're in trouble, I just need their attention RIGHT NOW. I didn't even have to emphasize they should ask if they don't understand something I said, it's MY job to explain, NOT theirs to understand. 

I had to make two of the teachers sit on stools on the far side of a work bench so THEY wouldn't try explaining things they are clueless about. One I made stay outside or go buy safety glasses. PPE was well covered in the handout I wrote for them. She sat in her car the whole 3 hours of the one hour hands on session. Not someone I'd be very comfortable with in my shop with power turned on beyond the lights.

I took to blacksmithing as to decompress from working in Father's shop and in part rebellion, he actively discouraged me from taking up the craft regardless of how many times I told him I had no intention of anything but a hobby. The other thing that really attracted me was how little equipment you need to forge. I demonstrated using a boulder, cobbles and willow branches in a camp fire for one of the office geologists who was getting in our way on a field job. I was an exploration driller doing soils exploration for bridge and building foundations. Every once in a while one of the office geologists needed to put boots on the ground. It was a cred thing they rarely learned anything useful and we had to keep them well away from the drill.

I was beating steel into submission with rock anvils and any smooth faced hammer I could sneak out of Father's shop using the cab of an old metal truck toy for the forge. I often cooked something to eat on top of the cab roof but. . .

I've been hammering steel for a good 60 years but hardly regularly and almost entirely without instruction. It wasn't until the internet went public I discovered that blacksmithing wasn't a nearly dead craft outside of shoeing horses. I've been at it for decades but do not claim nearly as much time at the anvil. 

I read, voraciously, have outstanding reading comprehension and a nearly eidetic memory for the written word. Another reason my IFI moniker is so appropriate. I rapidly built a good library once I discovered there were books out there and did a lot of experimenting. Unfortunately an ex-associate stole my library before he left town. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

Smithing's been my primary hobby for most of that 41 years, the year I apprenticed was full time: 6 days a week in the shop, no pay but 2 meals a day with the swordmaker's family.  Amount of time in the shop varied wildly, like I spent 6 years crossing an international border twice a day for work and living in a rental house 200 miles from my "home"; other years I've been able to work after my day job and on weekends. I also did a few hours working with a smith at the Bad Windsheim Open Air Museum, showing him how I did pattern welding---yes I took a billet and borax on a business trip just in case! He was in his 80's back during the mid 1990's and been a POW in the USA during WWII.

I do a lot of different things; I generally tell folks "everything but horses!"; as mentioned I came in through blades and enjoy doing pattern welding even for items that are not edged!

I have a few texts in German:  Schöne alte Wirtshaus Schilder, Werk und Werkzeug des Kunstschmieds. Damaszener Stahl, Das Zweischneidige Schwert der Germanischen Volkerwanderungszeit, and a 1939 copy of Geschmiedetes Eisen that was sold to me under the table at the Frankfurt A.M. flea market as it contained pictures of ironwork just before WWII.

John, (JHCC) and I are both Bibliophiles and have extensive libraries of books with a blacksmithing association; like my copy of "The Opera of Bartolomeo Scappi" for the woodcuts of 1570's cooking implements as well as such basic works as "The Celtic Sword", "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" and "The Sword and the Crucible".

[Frosty]

4 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

He was in his 80's back during the mid 1990's and been a POW in the USA during WWII.

Small world. Dad was a guard in a POW camp in Texas during WWII. He got along well with German POWs, said they accepted they wouldn't get far in Texas if the escaped. With his trade he was classified as critical to the war effort and not deployed but given the resources to turn the prison camp into a factory for the war effort. Said they didn't have to search for smuggled weapons or tools at the end of the day.

When the prisoners were transferred out and and replaced by American military criminals he said it got real ugly real fast. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frf]

Watch how Roy uses the edge of the anvil to set down and define the tong parts. A square, small radius edge makes this job much easier. If a larger radius is needed, you use the round horn.

 

“What are they making? I like the forms and look.”

Ox shoes

-Josh

[Frosty]

Yes, he sets the shoulders down on a RADIUSED edges. A 1/8" radius makes a good edge. A sharp edge does damage except maybe when isolating stock at a point where you'll be separating the piece from the parent bar, just like the ox shoes as shown.

The radii on my Soderfors are around 1/8" and the remaining sharp edges are pretty crisp 90s. We're just talking degree, not kind. Much more than 1/8" isn't better and more than 1/4 is detrimental.  

It looks like Roy makes tongs about the same way I do but the camera angle makes it hard to see what he's doing and a closer look at the finished half for a few seconds would be nice. 

It's hard shooting good video Jennifer of JPL Services makes excellent instructional blacksmithing videos. Her production values and content are top shelf.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Frf]

Reread my post yesterday at 9:16pm, it is 1/8” radius I am talking about. This is what the anvils come with.

-Josh

[Frosty]

On 4/15/2022 at 5:29 PM, Frf said:

This would be the equivalent of keying your new Mercedes or using your anvil as a torch cutting table. 

You try to keep the edges of your anvil as sharp as possible for as long as possible. These eventually wear over time and you miss them when they are gone. This is what the round horn transition is for, and lower swages. A swage is easy to replace, an anvil is not. 
 

We are not the owners of the anvils we use, we are a steward for the next blacksmith. They belong to the trade, just like the knowledge that was passed on to us.

I enjoy a near eidetic memory for the written word though I may have to hunt for exactly where I read a particular thing. 

Re-read your post of 3 days ago. I have to wonder what you consider a "sharp" edge. Of course the picture you show of your main anvil doesn't appear to have a 1/8" or consistent radius let alone a sharp edge. A 1/4" round rod has a 1/8" radius and that anvil doesn't appear to in the pics. 

I'm going to have to leave this thread, I'm not trying to upset you but your statements are getting more inconsistent and my brain injury issues makes it very difficult not to point them out, sometimes unkindly. 

I'd rather we all remain friends.

Respectfully, Frosty The Lucky.

[Frf]

If the anvil comes with a 1/8” radius new, working to keep that radius as sharp as original and not increasing the radius through “dressing it” as per the original question would mean that a 1/8” radius is considered sharp when discussing german anvil edges.
 

My anvil pictured has an inconsistent radius due to 4-5 professional careers of wear on it for 100+ years, not because someone dressed it from a 1/8” radius.

I posted a picture of the hardy tool I use to replace the missing sharp edges on my anvil.

 

How is this confusing or inconsistent?

-Josh

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

Frf,

can you tell me about your forge, It looks like it has multiple fire pots? 

If so that’s pretty cool!

Did design it yourself?

[Frf]

roy here from frf

hi tw

the forge actually has 5 firepots, 4 are visible, the 5th will be in the center. i designed the whole setup together with the smokehood. the idea is not mine, i picked that up during my journeyman travels. i worked at oskar hafen's shop in meckenbeuren in southern germany in the late 80's and he had this kind of setup. the hood on his forge was actually mobile and could be moved up and down. you can see his shop at 0:24 in this video. the man in the video is his son.

he was a very smart man. unfortunately he already passed away. he was good friends with my apprenticeship master klaus walz. they were active together in the south german artist blacksmith association. the forge is designed the way it is, so you have access from all sides and you can actually put a heat on even very wide and/or long pieces. the forgetable is also close to the height of most of our anvils and so you do not need an extra support which always tends to get in the way. the earliest mention of the forge being designed/positioned this way i found in the max metzger book, where he recommends putting the forgetable in the center of the shop, if at all possible. for the trade. ama. roy from frf

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Roy, glad to have you. Having the forge and anvil heights the same is a good feature and a forge that size with 5 stations sounds like you do a lot of work at FRF. 

I really enjoyed the video, the crucifix sculpture is very attractive, I love how the positive elements and negative spaces play together. The steel looks to be 45mm? I love the heavy handling equipment you use to move and form the sculpture.

I watched the video of the forged railing it's beautiful. I sure wish there as video of it being forged too.

Nice to meet you, I hope you participate on the forum.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frf]

 

roy here from frf

hi frosty

the man in the attached video in the post answering twisted willow, is the son of oskar hafen, i think his name is andreas. i posted the video to show twisted willow the smokehood, which is visible at 0:24 into the video where i got my inspiration from. i am a cofounder and coowner of fraser river forge in vancouver, bc, canada. my reply was in relation to the post by twisted willow who asked if the design of our forgetable and smokehood was mine. design yes, idea no. so, i/we from frf are ready to be regular contributors to this forum. my goal especially, since i am getting on with age, is to pass on the skills and knowledge of the blacksmithing trade. in germany, where i come from, it is mandatory to pass on the skills since the skills are only borrowed for your lifetime, you do not own them. the blacksmithing trade is the more important part of the equation and it is my responsibility to do everything possible to further it and keep it alive. currently, we work 4 firepots max at a time, the 5th has not been installed yet and will serve more of a ceremonial role. it will be in the center of the forgetable. we just did not get around to make it yet. we make our own firepots and we offer classes on making them. this here is a video of me and josh, from fraser river forge, where i explain our take on blacksmithing classes.

for the trade. ama. roy from frf.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Frf
clarification

[Bright Forge]

Hello my friend,

I’d like to thank you kindly for taking the time out of your day to share such valuable knowledge. I’m currently an apprentice smith/toolmaker working in Norway and I’ve just recently been blessed with the opportunity to become the steward of a stupendous 193kg S&H south German anvil with voramboss in near perfect condition, and as such I’ve got a couple questions I’m hoping you could help me out with.

My first big quandary is about your choice of anvil stand. Though 193kg is far from being the largest anvil imaginable, it’s certainly hefty and begs the question of what system or material would do it the best justice and make the most of its weight? I see in your photo you’ve got a large section of log your anvil is place atop, but I’m wondering if wood becomes problematically light in respect to the anvil itself when getting into the 200kg range? I don’t want my anvil to be able to tip and rock or run around the forge floor. Matter of fact, I’d prefer it be near immovable aside from when necessary. Short of the cast iron bases and solid blocks of stone that I’ve seen in use around Germany, what would your recommendations and thoughts be on the matter?

My second question is regarding chipping. As I mentioned I’ve been blessed to find a both beautiful and almost un-damaged anvil, however there is one small chip in the square horn and I’m just curious if you have any thoughts on what to do about it? I’ll kill before welding on my anvil and I won’t be grinding a single grain off of its beautiful hard surface but I’m curious if you do any dressing/softening of the edges that have been chipped? Maybe less so to make it an ideal work surface again but more to reduce sharp edges and the potential for more small chips to come out from that same location? (Thankfully the one instance of chipping in my anvil is shallow and on the square horn in a rather non-bothersome location) 

My last question for now is regarding surface finish. I see you stripped the paint from your anvil (wirebrush?) and returned it to its raw state as I’ve been planning to, and as such im wondering if you guys do anything to treat the surface of the anvil to prevent corrosion? I was going to just oil it all except for the face and call it a day (I don’t live by the coast or any other location that’s rough on iron) but if you have any recommendations I’d be grateful to hear them. 

Thank you again for your patience and for taking the time to read and respond,

Mr. Bright

[Julianb]

Hello,

 

I wouldn't do anything about the chipped spot, it happens and wouldn't even be substantial for a guarantee claim at S&H.

The other questions are kind of a question of faith. I'd go with a large enough wood-stump, my 222kg anvil rests firmly on one of those and it does not move.

Just a light coating of oil on the face would prevent rust, but as you're using it every day, I suppose, that shouldn't be necessary anyway.

 

Cheers!

Julian

[Steve S]

Hello

So interesting,  I’m about to take delivery of a new double horn # 12. 
Any thoughts about the “start up” on a new anvil?

The working height?   Mid wrist,  I like it.     I’m still a knuckle dragger…….

Steve

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Steve, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with members living within visiting distance.

"Start up" for a new anvil?  Put it on a stand and start using it? You know your preferred height, what else do you want to know? 

Do you have a preference for stand? Wood is popular and old tymey. My preference is a steel tripod, it's more stable, more solid I can work close enough my toes are under the anvil and maybe the biggest benefit, it damps the injuriously LOUD ring from my Soderfors and Trenton anvils to manageable with muffs or plugs. 

I don't hate the idea of breaking the edges so they don't cause cold shuts when setting down. 

If on the other hand you're just trying to start a conversation, introduce yourself and we'll all take it from there. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark Mountains.

Pictures, manufacture, weight, of your new anvil. Where you are located, a little about your experience hitting hot steel. Wow so many questions.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[stickermigtigger]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:00 PM, Frf said:

How is this confusing or inconsistent?

Just ignore him Roy. He's always looking for a fight and an opportunity to belittle someone.