Frugal Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 I have recently been given / inherited an old forge so that I can start blacksmithing. It is a William Allday & Co "Alcosa" forge. The main forging area is a 24" drum filled with 4 bricks of some kind, with a small air hole in the centre. Researching around, William Allday & Co were in business from 1948 to 1984, and the wiring had a green Earth wire, so it predates 1976 so this forge is at least 45 years old. Interestingly they are apparently unconnected to Allday & Onions, this was a separate Allday family (or at least a different branch of it. The air is supplied by a very old and very broken electric pump through a small 5/8" hole under the drum. There does not appear to be anyway of preventing clinker and ash building up in the hole in the drum, but as I was never able to see the forge in use it may "just work". The drum sits on the stand and the spigot the stands up on the stand frame pokes into the hols in the bottom of the drum. The inlet side of the spigot on the stand is only 3/8". The original motor was rated as 3.8CFM (0.1 m3/min). So this seems to be a low volume, high pressure kind of airflow rather than the standard forge setup which is high volume, low pressure. I did try to use a hair dryer to provide the airflow, but it died after about 30 seconds due to overheating as things like hair dryers are designed to do high volume, low pressure. When I look around for forge blowers, they are all 2-3" outlets, which makes me think that they are high volume, low pressure designs, so I am guessing that if I try to use one I will overheat it as I am not going to be able to push all of that air through the 3/8" tube. Has anyone seen / used this kind of forge? All of the other "Alcosa" forges I can find online have all had a large diameter blower on the side of the forge and are side blown. Does anyone have any recommendations as to what kind of air supply I should be looking for. I was thinking a small pump used to blow up inflatable beds, as they are low volume / high pressure, but I am not sure that any of them would be rated to run continuously for any length of time as they are only designed to run for a few minutes to blow up a bed. Once I can get a fire going, I will then look at some kind of hood and chimney so that I do not have to carry it outside to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 2, 2022 Share Posted February 2, 2022 That is a really small air supply set up. It sort of looks like something run up by the local mad man with his own ten thumbs. I would try to eliminate the small diameter delivery system and replace it with a larger diameter and use either a hand crank or electric blower. The small diameter air supply would probably result in a fire with a very small hot spot in the middle which is not optimal for heating metal. You would not get a very big hot spot to forge or when trying to heat an adequate area you could burn the metal in the hot spot. Also, the high velocity air could have a tendency to blow through the fire and blast out burning bits. All in all, not a good situation. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 What does the plackard on the side of that thing say? It doesn't look like a forge at all to me. None of it makes sense. First why such an unusably small air blast? And what's with the shape of the outlet? Secondly, why inset blast so far under the stuff lining the pan? Thirdly, How do you lay long stock over the fire? How would you heat the center of a 3' bar? It would be bridged WAY above the heart of the fire on the sides of the tub. I don't think that's a forge. Not that you couldn't make one from it but it's not much use now. Were I to convert it, I'd bust out all the junk in it and cut the sides down to no more than 3" high. Then I'd cut the fitting out and replace it with a minimum 2" floor flange screwed to the underside. That's screwed, bolted or riveted through the flange, NOT the pipe fitting. I screw 2" x 4" pipe nipple into the floor flange facing downwards. To this I screw a 2" pipe T with the drop horizontal, this is the air inlet. The leg of the T facing downwards gets a 6"-8" nipple to collect ash, clinker and burning coals in a way they can't interfere with the free flow of air to the fire. Lastly I clamp an exhaust flap cap to the downward leg, this is the ash dump. The counter weight will hold it closed until you reach under with tongs, hammer, piece of stock, old stick, whatever and flip it open. The ash and collected crud just falls out. Keep a bucket with water in it to extinguish any burning coals for safety's sake. So much for the air supply to the forge pan. Looking in the pan you'll see a 2" hole leading to the ash dump. I like to ram steel or iron forge pans with an inch or two of compactable damp soil. Don't make mud, this isn't a pottery class, it WILL crack (shrink check) as it dries. Just enough moisture so you can ram it hard is perfect. Leave a depression over the air inlet tapering down till it meets the pan. I used an old cereal bowl the first time I did it but that was over kill. You just want the nest a couple inches larger in radius than the blast, say 6" dia. or a little larger, it's not critical. The last thing is the air grate, you can copy an old timey one from a rivet forge. Drilling a bunch of holes in a piece of plate works but not so well. I like a "bar grate" it's just a few pieces of round steel rod say 3/8" - 1/2" dia that will span the air pipe and spaced about 3/8" apart. If you make them long enough you can drive them into the clay liner and they'll stay put. Or you can weld an end bar to hold them or I bend them into hair pin shapes with 3/8" space. The beauty of this type air grate is it's easy to keep clear, you can just rake across it and knock what clinker won't come up and out, through the grate and into the ash dump. A plate with drilled holes can be really hard to get clinker out of. Clinker sticks to steel pretty well and the sharp edges of drilled or punched holes makes them stick better. Anyway. That's my afternoon ramble, I hope it makes sense and helps. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 Thanks for the replies. The placard on the side of the forge says: "Alcosa - British Product" in the logo at the top. Then "William Allday & Co Ltd", "Stourport on Severn", "Worcestershire, England", "Pattern No B-011LB" The "drum" is 20" in diameter and the bricks are 3" thick and come up to 2.5" below the rim. The drum sits over the inlet blast, so when it is assembled the inlet pipe pushes up into the drum and the drum sits on the cross bar and the rim of the stand. So I think that the outlet works like a gas cooker hob, where it gets pushed out of the sides and up and around the "cap" of the inlet which is attached to the drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 13 hours ago, Frosty said: Were I to convert it, I'd bust out all the junk in it and cut the sides down to no more than 3" high. Then I'd cut the fitting out and replace it with a minimum 2" floor flange screwed to the underside. That's screwed, bolted or riveted through the flange, NOT the pipe fitting. I screw 2" x 4" pipe nipple into the floor flange facing downwards. To this I screw a 2" pipe T with the drop horizontal, this is the air inlet. The leg of the T facing downwards gets a 6"-8" nipple to collect ash, clinker and burning coals in a way they can't interfere with the free flow of air to the fire. I am trying to see if I understand you right. If the current set up is on the left, are you suggesting something like the setup on the right? Rather than dig out all of the existing brick, could I use a core drill to cut a 2" hole down through it, and then build up the top 2.5" with the soil that you suggest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Frosty nailed it. what you drew above is what you want to end up with. How you get there is the journey and thats your choice. You could even go another inch in height as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yanni Rockitz Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 You're in the right ballpark with the image on the right. The 2" tuyere under the firepot is spot on, but if I grasp Frosty's recommendations correctly, he was suggesting more of a flat "liner" of barely-moist soil (perhaps some clay mixed in to help it set -- my two cents) in more of a flat area around the air grate, about 1"-2" deep. I'd opt toward the 2" depth, as it will let you make a bigger/deeper "firepot" over the air grate and will shrink as it dries, anyway. If it's not great, bust it all out and do it again -- soil, sand and clay are mostly free (maybe not clay - depends where you live.) The old "JBOD" (Just A Box Of Dirt) forge is a classic and things don't really need to be fancier than that. Some folks like a mix of sand and clay for a liner... Search up images of "lined rivet forge", "coal forge liner", etc. -- you'll see people do this a hundred different ways. Having some kind of form, like a little cereal bowl, to form the liner around to create the firepot is an easy way to get the shape, but likely just as easy to form by hand. If it's flat around that, you can pile in your coal and rake it into the fire as needed. Pile it up higher for a bigger fire for larger stock... I guess it depends on what that material is that's in there now -- the gray stuff that looks like cement. If it's an actual fire-rated refractory, maybe you can keep some of it, but probably easier to just bust it all out and start over. If it was me, I'd overkill it by lining it with a couple of inches of KastOLite or some similar castable refractory -- would take crazy heat and should last a long time, but I overkill everything, so I'll defer to the guys who've done it with these types of forges more. Mine is the big, 5" deep steel one in the pic with the straight air grate. Here are a couple other pics of typical rivet forges in the same general shape (though lower-walled), snipped from google image searches. Lots of folks cut out a section of wall on either side so they can set longer pieces across, further down into the fire, as Frosty suggested. I agree on the straight-grooved air grate (instead of drilled holes) - easier to clean out with a poker. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yanni Rockitz Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Your "Alcosa" forge from William & Allday was probably modified by someone who needed a very tight hotspot from that teeny air inlet that's in it now -- can't imagine why. A quick Google found that company definitely made forges, bellows -- all kinds of gear, back in the day. I say modify it back to what it started as -- a forge with a bigger air intake and a blower (if that's what it actually was.) If not, make it so! ;-) Check out some of the stuff that comes up for them (pics below.) Some of those deeper forges were "cavalry" forges, I think. All they heated up in them was horseshoes, so they didn't care about low walls to allow longer stock to sit in the fire. You could just cut out a couple of openings on either side for that -- but keep the nameplate -- it's a classic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 Ram the barely damp clay/sand mix in a flat layer. Typically 1" is all that's necessary to distribute the heat and protect cast iron from cracking due to localized heat or sheet steel pan from warping for the same reason. The little dish over the air grate is just to let the blast through and provide room to clean the grate. It is NOT a fire pot. I described a "Duck's Nest" forge, the fire typically lays on the flat forge table and is as large as you make it. If you NEED a specific size or shape fire use fire brick around the air grate. I typically lay thee bricks on edge to form a fire about 9" long, 5" wide and about 5" deep. If I need larger I have more bricks, you can even cover it to form a coal fired oven. Say stack bricks two high and 9" x 9" covered. Heat the bricks to a cheery red, quench the fire in a bucket of water, NOT by dumping water in the forge! What you have left is a nice large red hot chamber to anneal in. That was just off the top of my head but it's the idea behind a duck's nest forge, it's very versatile. I spent too long searching Pattern No B-011LB on the Alcosa site and got zero hits and didn't see one forge with a pan very similar to yours. Also, none of their forges had an air supply anything like yours. Personally I think it used to be a supply tank or hopper and the contents fed through the pipe nipple in the bottom. Say something like a paint gun or pest control sprayer. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Posted February 3, 2022 Author Share Posted February 3, 2022 I have managed to find a single image of the same forge that I have. Unfortunately it was a ghost of an old ebay sale, so I cant track down any more details. The looks to be identical to the one I have, same switching box, same blower with tall air filter. So it was definitely sold as I found it rather than being converted from something else. I wonder if it was not actually a blacksmiths forge, but some other kind of forge. Tinsmith or silver smith maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 I did see one like that, the pattern number didn't match though and I thought the bottom of yours was curved. So I kept looking. My bad. The nozzle on yours makes me wonder if it isn't some kind of gas burner and your hearth maybe an oven or brazing, soldering hearth. I don't know, I don't think it'd be much good for forging as it stands though. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 3, 2022 Share Posted February 3, 2022 My thought was an early gas ceramic chip forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 I think that whoever suggested that it was originally a gas burner may be right. The flame might have spread out in the slots making an X shape. Maybe to set a solder pot on for a tinner or copper smith. But, IMO, not too hard a conversion to a coal/charcoal forge. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 I have some 2" pipe fittings on order and they should hopefully turn up some time this week. I also have some coal being delivered on Monday, but I couldn't wait another week without at least trying her out. I gaffer taped an electric air bed pump to the air intake valve at the bottom and used some charcoal we had around the house. Please don't hate on me for the charcoal briquettes, we have precious little lumpwood left and I used the briquettes just to get the fire going (no one is selling lumpwood locally in Feb in the UK ). With a continuous airflow from the bed pump the fire is about 5-6" in diameter, and it never spread any wider than that no matter how much I encouraged it. It certainly got the hot spot hot enough to be able to get 8mm round stock hot enough to work, but I am never going to be able to make an axe or a hammer in it as it currently is. When I get it converted to a 2" airflow and a soil / dirt liner with a proper grate and the like I will give you an update. In the mean time I am going to continue to be very confused as to what kind of blower I need to get for this forge. I have been reading around the site, but I need to do some more digging as my head is full of CFM, PSI, Radial and Axial fans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Don't sweat the fan thing. I am currently using a recycled 115 cfm bathroom exhaust fan in my forge. I used a 4" plastic plumbing 'Y' with a blast gate ( basically a sliding door) that I use as a dump valve. Then it steps down thru flex aluminum duct into my 2" tuyere. Works great. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 5" to 6" hot spot was what swords were forged with in Y1K. I certainly could forge a hammer in that! The main problem I see is that you are using briquettes instead of lump charcoal. Briquettes are engineered to not burn as hot as plain charcoal and usually contain stuff like clay and potato starch and powdered anthracite instead of just Carbon and a bit of silicates. Fire need to be deep too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 I only had half a bag of lumpwood, so I used the briquettes to check that I could get the fire going and keep it going with the little fan I have. then I used the precious lumpwood for the actual forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted February 6, 2022 Share Posted February 6, 2022 If you have somewhere near your forge that you can build a fire and transfer the coals from the fire to the forge you'll have plenty of charcoal. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetreeforge Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 Friend had a forge the same, it had round leather bellows that went directly underneath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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