Anvil Bias

[Bob La londe]

I have a question that I think might set off or trigger a few people, but I kind of need to ask.  

When I talk about bias:

I'm not talking about the percentage of horn vs percentage of weight or any variant of that bias.  

I'm not talking about Acme anvils always landing on the coyote and never on the road runner. 

I'm talking about anvil materials.  There is a very strong bias in many groups against cast iron anvils.  Basically the term anvil shaped object was coined to disparage them.  I have to ask.  Weren't all early ferrous anvils cast iron for the first thousand years or so?  Heck, weren't tree stumps themselves used as anvils when necessary?  

Sure I get it.  A cast steel anvil is better than a cast iron anvil, and a forged steel anvil is generally better than a cast steel anvil, but why is it necessary to be so biased about it.  Can't you make anything you need on a cast iron anvil?  Especially if you are a dilettante or a occasional hobbyist?  Couldn't a skilled smith beat out anything he/she needed on a suitable tree stump? 

If you are one of those who say "forge steel or nothing" does that mean you can't work on anything else?  

Yes I know this could be an incendiary topic, but I am hoping the responses will be more thoughtful than that.   

I wonder sometimes if it isn't an instinctive barrier to entry used by some.  Big companies that dominate an industry (near monopoly power) like deregulation as it increases profitability, but they like a certain amount of licensing and regulation if it applies to everybody no matter how small because it acts as a barrier to entry to small competitors and startups who can otherwise produce leaner and often faster than they can.  

P.S.  If this is a taboo subject because of past flame wars or other such nonsense feel free to delete.  I am curious about thought out responses, but its not my intent to start a riot.  

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

I’m not an expert by any means but I think the problem with cast iron anvils is how brittle cast iron is. I’ve got lots of antique tools and machines hanging around my shop and more than once I’ve dropped or knocked over something over made of cast iron and it just cracks or chips or knocks a chunk out of whatever it was. So I imagine that an cast iron anvil could and would be potentially dangerous if you were really working hard on it. But agin I’m not an anvil expert I’m just a beginner. 

[ThomasPowers]

Got a few problems here; in Europe casting of iron wasn't much known till the 14th century AD so for about the first 2 thousand years of the iron age it wasn't known.

Also in Europe the material used by the smith was real wrought iron generally worked at welding heat and so VERY SOFT. (Mild steel like we use today started in the mid 19th century with the Bessemer/Kelly process)

So disregarding all the erroneous suppositions lets talk about Cast Iron Anvils. My personal experience:  I had to use a 220# cast iron anvil after my cast steel one was stolen right before a demo at a Museum.  It would DENT under 5160 I was trying to forge---a lot of energy went into deforming the anvil rather than deforming the workpiece.  Never used it again after getting a good anvil ASAP and sold it at a loss to someone who promised never to use it to smith on and never to sell it to another person to smith on!

Basically I would have done better to use a heavy chunk of scrap steel for about a quarter of the cost per pound as that Cast Iron ASO.  Shoot a granite cobblestone would have been better. (Stones were used in many countries from the start of the iron age until at least the early medieval period in places. (Of course forging real wrought iron at welding heat is softer on the stone as well.)

The barrier to entry is people NOT doing their research and thinking that they must have a london pattern anvil to forge on, a design that is less than 300 years old and used in a fairly limited part of the world; while a simple cube of wrought iron or steel have been used as anvils for 3000+ years!

All CHEAPER AND BETTER THAN A CAST IRON ASO!    Look over: 

 

[Bob La londe]

First off, accept for the the clearly whimsical reference to the Acme anvil, rocket, and explosives company I did not specify London pattern.   Second there are lots of types of cast iron.  If you can forge metal on it is it still ok to scream ASO at cast iron?  I guess for some it is.  If you can forge metal on it its an anvil.  Your reference to rocks and cobble stones backs this up.  You had one you didn't like because you had something better before.  Got it.  

I guess lastly (for now) there seems to be some gross misapprehension that everybody lives or works just down the street from a scrap yard that sells cheap to individuals or a machine shop that gives away medium carbon or tool steel drops to anybody who walks in with a smile and a box of donuts.  If you have to buy that block of steel somebody else just lucked into for free its not so cheap.  Ok... its not totally luck if you go looking for it, but its still lucky if you live next door to that ideal machine shop or scrap yard.  

FYI:  For years I used a piece of AR500 armor plate for my occasional heating and beating session.  Worked fine.  

[ThomasPowers]

Yes there are blacksmithing supply stores that sell malleable cast iron anvils and they are a good anvil and NOT referred to as ASO's on this site! Check it out; we don't call things like the TFS anvils ASO's.  However all of the cast iron anvils I have seen being sold in various *non*-blacksmithing supply stores  tend to be grey cast iron ASOs.  Often with misleading names "Real Steel"---brand name  "professional quality"---not professional quality for blacksmiths!  Sells a cast iron (in MUCH smaller font) anvil for instance. (at US$2 at the freight salvage store in NW AR). It aint malleable cast iron!

I hate to see beginners blow their tool budget for a tools that gets *damaged* in normal use. (I was going to say " what good tools get damaged in normal use"; but the pencil and arc welding rods came to mind...)  When they can find a better, cheaper alternative.  I know forklifts are found in more places that HF stores are!  If they are willing to pay rather than hunt; no problem---just buy something decent!  Why does it have to be a machine shop or scrapyard?  Mechanics, forklift dealers, farm implement repair, construction equipment, lots of places out there use large chunks of good steel; you just have to think outside of the big box store! Or you can find a blacksmithing supply store and just source a decent anvil there; they generally have a range of quality options and prices.

I have bought a 55# HF anvil before; our smithing group made a propane stove from it by drilling and counter drilling under the face for the propane feed and then drilling down into the shafts for the burner holes.  It was such a low grade grey cast iron it should have been called something like "irony graphite" instead. Drilled like butter but the cuttings were black powdered you could use for drawing with.  Made an amusing display at Quad-State,  a piece of steel in the hardy with the end bent to hold a coffee pot over the "gas stove".

Another point. Sears Roebuck used to sell anvils in their catalogs around 1900 and they often had a range from cast iron anvils to rebranded HB's.  Funny thing; while I have seen a bunch of the rebranded HBs or other good name maker anvils; I have only seen one or two of the ASOs; so they didn't survive use; or the scrap drives during the Wars...)

[Frazer]

To your point, a lot of things can be used as an anvil, including a tree stump or a rock in a pinch. To TP's point, there is really no reason to buy a cast iron anvil in a world where there are more suitable materials everywhere. If someone has a CI anvil, there is no reason they can't use it. It's not going to be ideal, but it will do and it's better than trying to forge something on, say, a pile of dirt or the hood of your car. 

The main problem is when people look up prices for a new anvil, not knowing that any reasonably heavy chunk of steel can be used, and see an anvil at 1/10th of the price, but still a decent sum of money for many when they are first stating out. Only to find that they had an improvised anvil right under their nose the whole time. 

[ThomasPowers]

I'm having a masked and socially distanced trip to the scrapyard for a couple of new smiths over the holidays.  I freely share my finds.  I have way more than I need already---of course I did buy some more sewer snake last visit: flat band, about the size of the medium pallet strapping and such a beautiful fine grain when heated, water quenched and *tapped* lightly. It shattered.  Now to stack it with bandsaw blade  for all HC billets! 

[anvil]

I think you should use anything you want for an anvil. 

Compared to the other posts in this thread, it seems you have a strong bias in favor of cast iron anvils. Go for it. 

[Bob La londe]

LOL-IRL

No.  Not really.  Like I said my "anvil" for ages was a piece of AR500 armor plate.  Bought what I thought was a steel anvil a few years, and found it to be pretty soft and spark tested like cast iron.  I guessed I was correct when I complained and the seller gave me my money back AND told me to keep the anvil.  It was not cast iron priced.  Its been shuffled around the work benches and floor for several years, but never been used.  Finally when my son expressed an interest I told him to build a board stump and mount it figuring it would deform and self destruct over time, but since we had it might as well use it.  I have been rather surprised at how much nicer it is to use than my piece of armor plate.  Maybe just because its about 70lbs and mounted and the piece of armor plate is unmounted and 25-30 pounds.  Oh, I can see it deforming, but not quite as badly as I expected.  
 

 

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of it will depend on how you use it. Working real mild steel at yellow will be a bit different that hammering H-13 on it with a sledge at orange.  Sunday we were double striking 6&8 pound sledges on an HC steel hammer head being reforged.  We were using a car axle forged to fit the hardy hole and then bent down to lie along the 165# HB anvil face for a bottom fuller.  No dings in the anvil face; no problems with the hardy hole!

[Bob La londe]

I have been thinking about mounting my little piece of armor plate to be used as a striking anvil.  Its a little thin (IMO) at only 1 inch, but its been used for metal beating for a lot more years than I've had it.  A friend of mine gave it to me years ago, and his dad had used it for metal beating for years before that.  My biggest concern is how best to mount it.  Welding AR500 is not all that difficult if you do it right, but it will loose a lot of its hardness around the welds if I weld on mounting ears.  

I've got a couple packs of nickle 55 rod that should weld it nicely, or with more care in heat management I could use some E7018.

 

[Janoy]

On 12/21/2020 at 6:33 PM, Bob La londe said:

 a forged steel anvil is generally better than a cast steel anvil, but why is it necessary to be so biased about it.    

A lot depends on how the anvil is build. A forged steel one piece? Sure may be better than a cast steel one. An arc welded forged steel anvil vs a cast one piece tool steel? I prefer the cast tool steel. It also looks nicer.

Then again the heat treating is going to determine a lot about the quality of the anvil as well. 

[Deimos]

On 12/21/2020 at 11:34 PM, Bob La londe said:

Welding AR500 is not all that difficult if you do it right, but it will loose a lot of its hardness around the welds if I weld on mounting ears.  

Why not bolt it on then?

[ThomasPowers]

Might be a bit of a pain to drill and perhaps tap.

[Deimos]

You can drill the hard metal and tap into the metal below it, just use recessed socket head screws. If you use lots of oil and good drills it should not be a problem. 

[anvil]

The best solution,in my opinion, is a full weld[plug weld and reheat treat]. No matter the material, all things get drawn out when you beat on them. This applies to a perimiter weld as well. Of course actual work hours matter.   This also applies to bolting. Unless both surfaces are machined, the surfaces will have spaces. These spaces will vibrate, ring, and draw out as you hammer. The top plate will distort and stress feactures can build up. How many bolts, and where placed? Edges only? Refer to above. One or so in the middle? Its in the way. I could go on. 

 

[Daswulf]

You could forge using a brick as an anvil for a little while but I wouldn't recommend it. You can use a cast iron anvil, but I wouldnt recommend it. I'd go with a sledgehammer head over cast iron, and I believe they can be found in most places with any bit of civilization. 

[anvil]

I agree. Or any hunk of any kind of steel thats not cast. It all depends on how much actual time will be spent in your shop, and what your shops primary purpose is.

[Deimos]

yes, I was assume both surfaces where 100% flat, and proper welding and reheating is best. But if i could choose between welding ears on something and losing hardness or using bolts on the edges and having to change those out once in a while, I would go for bolts.

[anvil]

However i usually go for the kiss principal. 

I would find a wooden stump. Trace your plate on the top. I think you said its 1" thick. Chisel out a 2" deep recess that is a close fit to your plate. Fill about 1-1\2""-1-3\4" with sand. Level the sand and put your plate in. This will deaden the ring, give 100% support to your plate, and increase the mass of your anvil.

I wouldnt attempt to join those two pieces of metal. But hey, do it how it suits you and enjoy.

P.s.

I wouldnt assume anything about the two surfaces.

 

[Deimos]

Force of habit from working with high precision machines, everything is made to fit within 0,01 mm

[BillyBones]

I got me one of those 25# cast iron ASO's, works great...as a doorstop.