Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Hi all I've been trying some Damascus and San Mai recently with mixed results but I was wondering if anyone had any tips on getting a nicer transition than this I'm finishing with a fine surface conditioning belt and etching in boiling vinegar. is it my steel choice? on this blade I have a 1075-1080 core from admiral steel and home depot mild steel sides. I also noticed that when a pulled it out of the etch it would have a nice black edge with a silver or white spine like in the next picture but that would wash off leaving what you see in the top picture. I see pictures like this online and am wondering what I need to do differently I also found some small cracks running parallel to the spine that appeared after temper even though i clayed the spine how could I prevent those and get I nicer etch Thanks all Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Nick, I've never etched in boiling vinegar, but it sounds like you don't have a deep/aggressive enough etch. I don't really make knives, but in the few times that I've done damascus I have had pretty repeatable results after hand sanding to 1500 grit, etching with ferric chloride, and finishing by sanding lightly with worn out 2500 grit sandpaper. The process for a san mai might be different, but you might notice a difference by trying different etchants. Also, what you're referring to as a crack looks like an incomplete forge weld to me. I'm not sure why it would appear after tempering and not after quenching/etching, but from the picture that's what I'm seeing. I could be wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Why clay and SanMai? Who said to boil the etching liquid? and Why mild steel sides, you have a 1035 finished blade now, also you have A36, not mild steel for the sides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 I had heard the clay could prevent the spine from splitting which happened on my last blade. The boiling vinegar is just something I saw online. and I just assumed that home depot steel would be mild because I couldn't harden it which is my mistake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 It may be mild, it may have carbon, its unknown because A36 is a structural specification, not an alloy, it has what ever was available for the melt that day from the scrap collected that week, all that really matters is it passes the Charpy test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 Ah ok thanks. also is there a good combination of steels to try? and would I get a better etch with something like Ferric Chloride? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCalvert Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Why not 1095 and 15n20? Both are inexpensive, and buying from a good supplier removes those variables. Just a thought. Also, boiling an acid only speeds up the reaction. Ferric chloride is a proven way to get results. Look at the contrast from some of the beautiful blades showcased here and note the alloy choices and etchant used.. there's your road map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhitee93 Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 That kitchen blade you reference a pic of looks like it has stainless outer layers. That is one way to get the really "far out" looking migration patterns. I've done quite a few of these using both 304 and 416 outer layers with 1084 and W2 inner material. It's not an easy thing to do, but there are a lot of descriptions out there on the interweb if you're up for the challenge. It's hard to get the broad transition zone with a without using stainless steel. 15N20 with a 1084 core will give you a lot of contrast, but it will be a sharp transition between the two materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 thanks for all the suggestions What would be best to etch in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Do you mind "possibly illegal to own/use in the country you are in" etchants or are we supposed to guess what might be available to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 you mean all of us on this forum arent all in his back yard? and he never did say how long he left it in the solution Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted October 28, 2020 Share Posted October 28, 2020 Nick, might I suggest putting you general location in your profile so others can be better equipped to answer your questions. I am going to make an assumption that you are based in the US. I have had success using ferric chloride. If the vendor recommends it, dilute it with DI water to the specified concentration. Start with clean, oil free material and a light etch (3-5 minutes). Adjust etch time/concentration to your liking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velegski Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 I generally follow Frazers technique. If that fails to achieve the desired look then I may do one or more etch's. I also do a ferric etch followed by a coffee etch as described by Templehound. An ultra strong instant coffee bath followed by a cold water rinse to set etch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazer Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 The coffee does darken the dark areas of the pattern, in my case 1095, but that strong contrast does seem to wear off faster. I still use it though since while it lasts, the pattern does look very nice. Since the OP is using mild steel and 1080, both of which will etch dark, I don't know if the coffee will enhance the contrast or if it will just darken everything. That's something he can test if he likes, so good suggestion and option if FC isn't available where he is. Etch times in instant coffee are much longer. I have gone anywhere from an hour to overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 hey all I'm not sure how to list my state on my profile but I'm in Nebraska The steel i'm using for my casing does etch lighter than my 1080 and I left it in the boiling vinegar for 5 hours than in cold vinegar for 12 I should have said that earlier sorry and the cracks I was referring to formed along the spine Thanks all Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Nick Brodsky 2 said: I'm not sure how to list my state on my profile It's in your profile settings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 ok Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 I did it for you Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Brodsky 2 Posted October 30, 2020 Author Share Posted October 30, 2020 Double thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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