Metal cooling fast

[Bleu86]

Hello all,

I had my second try at forging a simple leaf today and  (after copious study at the University of YouTube.. WHAT UP ALEC STEELE).  I made vast improvements over last time and I'm still figuring out  how to handle a hammer and shop setup to maximize efficiency (and by shop I mean a gas forge on a roller table and a broken railroad track bolted to a log), but what I'm finding is that my metal is cooling way faster than it seems to do in the videos.  As I watch the various YouTube videos,  the crafters are able to calmly speak and work for several minutes while the steel is till glowing.    I'm getting 4-5 hammer blows in before it starts getting dark.  I know videos do a questionable job of transmitting what color you're really looking for, but even at bright yellow color to my eye, it get very little time.  I'm working on a single venturi burner rectangular forge with stone/firebrick baffles on both ends.  After the forge is hot, I'm leaving 3/4 inch mild steel round  in for about 5 minutes and not really seeing much color change after the first couple of minutes.  

Thanks yall.

[Frazer]

The problem with cameras is that they have a tendency to misrepresent heat depending on the ambient lighting and the particular CCD in use. So what looks like white hot on camera in a dim/"normally" lit shop is actually a bright orange/yellow heat to your eye. Similarly, what looks like black heat to the eye may look like a dull red on camera. Unless your shop is set up in a location where the ambient light is the same as where the video was filmed and your eye processes that light the same way that camera does, then the temperature is going to look different to you in real life than it will on any screen. 

That being said, minimizing the surface area of your piece that is in direct contact with the face of the anvil will result in less heat being drawn out. This is especially the case with thin cross-sections (ie. the stem of a small leaf) which are going to cool down much faster. 

Another thing to consider is experienced smiths generally move material much more efficiently than someone who is still figuring things out. Every time you swing your hammer your are transferring the energy of the motion of your hammer into moving the molecules/grains/crystalline structure (however you want to think of it) of the steel. These particles don't want to move and so there is internal friction within the steel itself, which generates heat. This keeps your leaf (or whatever the case may be) hotter for longer. That is to say by working the material harder/faster (with proper form) you can also keep it hotter for longer.

Points  number 1 & 2 are generally made easier by doing half face blows.

.....

Rereading your question it seems to drift from one thing to another.. is the problem that your material isn't staying hot or that it isn't getting hot in the first place?

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Ike Doss would say to me "You going to hit it or look at it", as my steel started to cool off. In other words, while I was trying to figure out how & where to hit it, time was a wasting. He taught me to have a plan in place and tools at hand before taking the steel out of the fire and move rapidly to the anvil.

[Bleu86]

On 7/29/2020 at 11:00 PM, Frazer said:

Rereading your question it seems to drift from one thing to another.. is the problem that your material isn't staying hot or that it isn't getting hot in the first place?

That was kinda what I was asking.  Material seems to be getting plenty hot, but maybe it's not as hot as I think it is?

Losing heat to inefficient technique makes sense too.  Nothing to do there but keep working on it till i can do it right!  I'm going to try leaving the steel in for much longer too and see if that helps.

Thank you so much for the feedback.

[Frazer]

You'll get the hang of it. Getting it hotter will help, just make sure you don't turn your piece into a little sparkler! I think Irondragon's advice about planning out what you're going to do next is a good one. Those few seconds of "uhhhh where is my tool?" or "Where am I supposed to hit?" are important to get the most out of every heat. Of course I still do that all the time. Mostly the first one, but still. We all do it, just less and less as you go.

The thing about youtube is people make things look so easy. Just do this, this and this and look it's perfect! What you don't see is the 1000 times they have done it before and all the mistakes/questions they had along the way.

I too decided to start blacksmithing about a year and a half ago (I thought I wanted to make knives) by falling down that YouTube rabbit hole. I know it's tough right now, but when you can I highly suggest taking a few classes if they're available near you or to stop by a meet. Technique is something you'll learn by spending time at the anvil, but you learn much faster if someone is there to teach you the fundamentals in person.

[ThomasPowers]

It's kind of fun watching a piece actually heat up as you hammer it fast and hard.  One trick is to NOT place the workpiece on the anvil until you are ready to hit it and to pick it up off the anvil if you need to "think".  Some smiths will actually hold a piece off the anvilface and let the hammer push it in contact---a bit tricky to do for most of us.

Preheat the anvil till it's warm to the touch also helps---especially in the winter! One friend uses an old clothes iron set on high; plugs it in when he enters the shop and by the time the tools are out, the forge is hot and the piece is hot and ready to work; the anvil has lost it's chill.

Note that once the workpiece is the same colour as the coal fire/interior of the propane forge. It's pretty much up to heat. It doesn't profit from more soak time except for getting a longer length hot.  (Now certain alloys require time for solutioning of their components; but PLEASE don't get into working high alloy steels when you are just getting started!)

[Frazer]

I agree, I have even seen people light their forge by hammering cold steel hot enough to ignite some paper. Conservation of energy at work. A real joule.

I like that trick with the clothes iron. Winters in NY can be a pretty cold and preheating the anvil takes a long time. Working on a cold anvil when the shop is 10 degrees? Talk about metal cooling fast.. Granted this probably isn't much of an issue in NM or TX, but in sure you have worked in similar environments TP. 

[ThomasPowers]

I had a friend out here who used to tell stories of being a cowboy around Angelfire and sleeping out in -20 deg F weather with his saddle for a pillow and the saddle blanket as "extra" warmth.  In New Mexico temps are usually based on altitude and Angelfire is over 8000' high.  Of course I'm in the river valley only about 4500'  it will be in the 90's degF today.  The sun makes all the difference. It can be cold in the winter but then the sun will heat up my metal shop and the gas forge will help and soon you are sweating again. (Makes it easier to open up the 10'x10' main doors for ventilation!)

[anvil]

Temp is directly related to color if you are in a constant light. Outside is not a constant.

So here's the nice little one liner that works for many steels particularly mild steel and wrought iron

" When it's yellow, it's mellow

When it's red it's dead".

Get it hot.

[arftist]

What size is your stock? Small bars cool much faster,

What size is your hammer? Too small hammers don't input much movement or heating energy.

How large is your anvil? Small anvils don't reflect much energy.

How well attached is your anvil? Loose anvils don't move much metal.

How hard are you swinging your hammer? Light blows don't move much metal.

How dark is your forging area? Forging areas should be dark to better judge the heat. Out in the sun doesn't work well at all.

[Bleu86]

Thanks everyone!  I'm in a shaded outdoor area in central Texas.  I'm not worrying much about preheating the anvil, lol!  Apart from that, it sounds like there's a lot of small tweaks I can make to improve workable heat time.  

Speaking of New Mexico, I've spent a lot of time in the Pecos wildernesses.  Love that area, but man, talk about some temperature swings!  Only place I've been that has changed as much in one day was Hueco Tanks.  40+ degree changes in a day.

[arkie]

As ThomasPowers mentioned, "One trick is to NOT place the workpiece on the anvil until you are ready to hit it and to pick it up off the anvil if you need to "think"."  As I recall Technicus Joe did a video where he demonstrates how he rocks his work back and forth on the anvil and he keeps the heat for what appears to be a long time.  I mention this only so that you might see it in action to get your timing down and try out that method.

[wirerabbit]

On 8/6/2020 at 5:01 PM, Bleu86 said:

Thanks everyone!  I'm in a shaded outdoor area in central Texas.  I'm not worrying much about preheating the anvil, lol!  Apart from that, it sounds like there's a lot of small tweaks I can make to improve workable heat time.  

Hola, Cedar Park,

You're up near my Sis-in-law. I'm looking forward to forging this winter. While it does get cold her in Fayette county TX, it's the summer heat that is killing me right now. Who cares if it's so hot the anvil actually ADDS heat to the piece (hee haw), if you faint from heat exhaustion, you still don't get the forging done.

I'm  sometimes rushed with my forging time as well. I suspect that I am just not putting the heat to it. I'm forging with charcoal and I pile a bit on top, obstructing my view of the steel. I then have a tendency to pull the piece out and, "hey, it looks hot enough. Let's go." I'm going to be trying to spot the piece inside the fire and pulling when I see almost no color contrast between the steel and my charcoal sweet spot.

Good luck with your work.

Taylor, near Jeddo TX

[Bleu86]

On 8/23/2020 at 12:48 PM, wirerabbit said:

Hola, Cedar Park,

Hey, I know fayette county!  Used to work in Bastrop!  

I recently lit up my forge in awhile and let my steel soak for a bit.  BIG difference.