Newbie questions

[Dean92]

Hello everyone, please bare with me if this has been asked before, i have looked through some of the discussions but didnt find what i was looking for.

Ive recently picked up an Isaac Nash and Sons 298lbs anvil with a handful of hardy tools in pretty good condition. Im in the process of creating a space at home and buying equipment to start forging so in the meantime im trying to gather information to give me a better understanding of the craft.

The one thing that continues to confuse me is different steel types/names, their uses and where to get them from in the UK.

Ive got a few half inch round bars of mild steel coming to begin practicing the basics like leafs, pokers, hooks and such but i would also like to make my own rounding hammer rather than buying one which means i also need to make some tongs, spring fuller tool, hammer eye drifts etc. I have no idea what steels i should be using or where to get them from. Id rather not buy tools if i can make them because all practice at the anvil is valuable, even if i fail a dozen times before i get it right.

I appreciate any advice/assistance that you may have to offer. Im not one of these that thinks im going to be pro after 2 weeks. I appreciate it will take me time, money and practice to get anywhere near good.

 

Thankyou 

[ThomasPowers]

Any luck trying to meet up with the British Artist Blacksmith Association?  They might know someone local to you that could make good local suggestions.  Are you only interested in new steel or are you interested in scrap as well---like US car axles: Axles below 1 3/8" OD forging stock are 1050, and 1541H above which make tough tooling in good sized rounds.  If you want to buy new but in small quantities, are there any small machine shops that might sell drops? 

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Dean, glad to have you. Like most of us you have goals that at present far exceed your grasp. Right now worrying about steel types and uses is typically more confusing than helpful. To start you need to build the basic hammer skills to make use of the listed tools, making them is a step beyond. Think of it like wanting to learn to grill a steak and asking how to slaughter and butcher a steer. Sure knowing the cuts makes a difference but not to the person learning to boil water for tea. Make sense?

Learning to draw and taper with reasonable precision is a base skill which serves regardless of steel type. However fire management for low carbon vs medium carbon is significantly different let alone high carbon. Hammers, punches and the like can be well made with a medium carbon low alloy steel. Any less confused? Want to know about heat management now? Excessive grain growth, cause and control? Normalizing, annealing? Hardening and tempering? You may not to make a tool requiring hardening and tempering but you have to deal with the rest working with medium carbon steels and work hardening and grain growth to a lesser degree with mild.

I'm not trying to make things worse for you but the answers to your questions are all over Iforge sometimes in answer to your questions almost word for word. Unfortunately you just don't know enough to recognize them when you read them. That's not a Dis, it's just a matter of fact, a person has to know enough about a subject to understand enough of what they: see, hear, read, to look up specifics. 

For example, Thomas answered your question on a couple levels and specifically. Unfortunately I don't know if the steel designations he lists apply in the UK. There are equivalent charts and converters available online. 

My recommendation is keep to the basics to start then move into higher carbon steel by making your punches, chisels and such. A spring fuller doesn't really require spring steel, the term refers more to how they work than materials needs. Not saying spring steel doesn't make more durable spring tools, it's just not necessary.

Use stock pieces long enough you don't need tongs to start out. Heat doesn't conduct through steel very well so 18" from the glowy part will be comfortable to hold bare handed. If it gets uncomfortable a wet rag will cool in nicely. It'll also give you better control and a MUCH better feel for what is going on in the steel you're hammering. Yes, you can tell a great deal about how steel is moving and when it needs to go back in the fire through your holding hand and hammer, your ears are the next on the input sources. Seeing the color and how it moves is less sure than feeling and hearing it, don't sweat it, it'll come with experience. Just do and pay attention, the steel will speak to you, you just need to learn the language.

Tongs are more of an intermediate than beginner's project, they require you make two matching pieces and that can get frustrating before you have some of the basic skills down. Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dean92]

20 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

If you want to buy new but in small quantities, are there any small machine shops that might sell drops? 

Hi, thanks for your response. Im not picky as to whether its new or scrap stock. There is a website that sells steel bars and sheets that ive been looking on, i just dont understand which of the steels are best used for what, for example, EN24, EN19, EN16 etc. I know some steels are labelled differently in the US.

19 hours ago, Frosty said:

My recommendation is keep to the basics to start then move into higher carbon steel by making your punches, chisels and such. A spring fuller doesn't really require spring steel, the term refers more to how they work than materials needs. Not saying spring steel doesn't make more durable spring tools, it's just not necessary.

I fully understand what your saying, its best not to jump too far in the deep end before nailing the basics. I dont have much knowledge at all on tempering, annealing, grain growth, pretty much everything you just said above tbh. Im definitely going to start doing more research, reading etc and get in touch with the smith i did my knife making day with to get more info from him. I appreciate your input.

 

Thanks

Dean

[Frosty]

35 minutes ago, Dean92 said:

I fully understand what your saying, its best not to jump too far in the deep end before nailing the basics.

Sure Dean, a lot of us like getting folks well and truly hooked on the craft. An Iforge tip to keep off the moderator's radar is to trim the quotes to just what you're responding too. I highlighted the above sentence in your reply and clicked the "Quote Selection" button that appeared.

If you have the basic kit, stop researching, build a fire and start hammering. Worry about a grade of steel to make tools when you're going to make some tools. A good source for stock to make punches, chisels, etc. are hex wrenches and old chisels, punches, etc. at boot sales. Before you use it though take a grinder to it so you get an idea of how to read the sparks. This is another valuable skill set. 

I hope you have a note book so you can go back to see how far you've come and what worked 16 times ago. 

When trouble shooting, change ONE THING at a time and test or you'll never know what did what.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frazer]

Another thing I will add is buying bar/round stock in small sections online is generally the most expensive option out there. Before you go filling up your shopping cart with different materials, stop by a scrapyard or pick up some railroad spikes or see what old metal objects you/your family has that they are willing to donate to be made into something new. Sure, it may be mystery steel (although with a quick google search you can generally determine what that object is potentially made of and by extension if it's forge-able) but it will serve your needs while you're starting out and learning some of the basic processes.

This of course comes with an important disclaimer, do not put any galvanized or plated steel in the forge. Zinc oxides are extremely poisonous. A good rule of thumb is if it's rusty, you should be okay, but be smart. I'll also note that vinegar will dissolve the galvanized surface. Just submerge it for a couple of days (or less, just wait for the bubbles to stop). I only go into saying this because sometimes one comes across large bolts and such and decide to forge them, but these are commonly galvanized to avoid corrosion.

If you're really set on knowing what material it is that you're forging, see if there is a steel supplier within driving distance from you, I don't know what pricing is like in the UK, but you will pay a fifth of what you'll spend buying little pieces online if you just buy a 20 foot length (I'm sure they do it in meters, but you get the idea) of mild steel to hammer on. If you're looking to make knives, coil springs are generally 5160 or something similar, and they make good knives. And you can get them for cheap/free.

I guess what I'm saying is get started for as cheap as possible. You don't need to buy everything all at once, you'll go broke before you ever swing a hammer. It takes most people years to build up their shop, which usually grows in parallel with their experience. You already have the anvil, which is a lot more than a lot of people start with. It sounds like you just need a forge, which can be built for very little money, a workspace and some time spent making your way up the the learning curve. Its hard to know exactly what to buy until you know how to make the things you need a specific steels for and you're better off learning on salvaged materials rather than the expensive stuff. 

If you're going to spend money on things, spend it on all the critical PPE first, sure you cant be a blacksmith without steel, but you also can't be a blacksmith without functional eyes/lungs/fingers etc.

Research is good, but if you spend too much time doing it and not trying out your plans, then you're no closer to making the things you picture yourself making.

Oh and to answer your actual question, here is a random site I found that provides some information on different steels.

https://www.isibang.ac.in/~library/onlinerz/resources/Enghandbook.pdf 

I apologize it uses the AISI numbering system, but when you ask what is this or that steel good for, understand it's a very complicated question. 

[ThomasPowers]

For example: RR spikes are not common in the UK whereas the pandrol clips are.

[Latticino]

As regards the OP, I'm a fan of making tools like hammers, hammer eye punches and hammer eye drifts from medium carbon steel with around 45 points of carbon.  I believe the classification in the UK is : C45.  I get mine from blacksmith group meetings, drops from machinists and steel "liquidators" (who sell offcuts from their main distribution sources directly to the public).  As Thomas indicated, car and truck axles may also be a good source of medium carbon scrap.

I typically make tongs from mild steel so I have no issues with quenching them periodically if they get too hot.  Spring fuller tools can be made from a variety of types of steel, depending on how often they are intended to be used, expected longevity, material availability and skill level of the smith.  For example, you can make them from just regular mild steel and carborize and quench just the business end (or not even bother with this last if you are willing to replace regularly).  You can make them from spring steel and use forge welded C45 rounds for the fullering section.  You can make them completely from spring steel, etc.

Hammer making is a blast.  Don't restrict yourself to a rounding hammer though.  They are certainly useful tools, but I would recommend a crosspeen first as a more "generic" smithing hammer allowing a beginner smith an easier method for drawing out width.

[Dean92]

22 hours ago, Frazer said:

This of course comes with an important disclaimer, do not put any galvanized or plated steel in the forge. Zinc oxides are extremely poisonous. A good rule of thumb is if it's rusty, you should be okay, but be smart. I'll also note that vinegar will dissolve the galvanized surface. Just submerge it for a couple of days (or less, just wait for the bubbles to stop). I only go into saying this because sometimes one comes across large bolts and such and decide to forge them, but these are commonly galvanized to avoid corrosion.

Hi Frazer, thanks for your advice, ill bare that in mind when using scrap materials to forge with. 

[ThomasPowers]

"In Rust We Trust"  Glenn actually has that as a T shirt you can buy!  I like wearing mine to the Scrapyard.  The "Hold the cold end and Hit the hot end" shirt is my favorite one for teaching.

[BillyBones]

As far as making tools, why do you have to forge them? I can pick up used hammer heads for $1 or $2 each. These are mini-sledge or engineers hammers around 2#(1kg)-4#(2kg). You could get something like that then take a grinder to it and shape the rounding hammer you want. Stock removal. If you do not over heat it with the grinder no need to heat treat and you know the steel is good for a hammer from the get go.  It will also serve you well until you have built up the skill set to forge the hammer you have in mind.

If money is an issue the trick i use is a coffee can. Everytime i work in the shop i "pay" myself. Just the couple dollars i may have in my wallet but that dollar or 2 adds up over time, and a lot less time than you think. Keeping the can in the shop also has the advantage of keeping the old lady out of it. 

Anyway welcome aboard. There is a lot of great people here who will give up their knowledge, just pay attention to them.  

[Dean92]

2 hours ago, BillyBones said:

As far as making tools, why do you have to forge them?

I have a 2lbs ball pein hammer i plan to use to get me going. Im not planning on diving right in to making my own hammer, im just planning ahead and getting the information i need so when im ready i can crack on. This is a hobby for me, atleast initially anyway, im a carpenter during the week and without sounding too up my own....money isnt that big of a deal for me so im quite happy to essentially waste a few quid on some materials trying to make things that are out of my wheelhouse because A- practice is key and B- i will have fun doing it. 

I do appreciate your comment though and im taking on board everybody's responses. I didnt contemplate the possibilities of buying a hammer and reshaping it if im honest and maybe that is something i will look in to doing for a short term solution.

Thanks

Dean

[Frosty]

Boot sales are your friend Dean. Things like smooth faced hammers, especially ball peins are good things for the "buy it" for cheap list. Hammers with broken hammers often get tossed in to a buy just to get them off the table. An offer to take "ALL this junk" for a couple dollars/pounds/? is a good way to get good basic stock. I try to bundle all the smooth faced hammers, chisels, punches, pry bars and such into a all or nothing buy. 

Folk looking to clear out a basement, shed, etc. often just want it gone and think a broken hammer handle makes them unsellable. I have a bucket full of various size ball peins I don't feel bad about heating up and forging into a specialty tool. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dean92]

Thats a great idea, i dont know why i didnt think of that to be honest. Im not sure boot sales will be opening here for a while due to Coronavirus but as soon as they do ill get straight to them and see what i can pick up. The amount of times ive watched Forged in Fire and seen them re purpose steel from wheelbarrows and all sorts i should have a thought of that myself haha

[Frosty]

Pointing out the obvious to each other is one of the best things about gatherings of blacksmiths. What other folk think of common practice is like a stroke of lightning to others. My forehead must have a permanent hand print from me slapping it so often.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[George N. M.]

There is an old joke about why (insert appropriate group, e.g. blacksmiths, lawyers, people from across the street, etc., have hunched shoulders and flat foreheads.  Answer:  When you ask them a question they shrug their shoulders.  When you tell them the answer they slap their forehead.  The joke probably works better visually than writing it out.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Frosty]

19 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

The joke probably works better visually than writing it out.

Oh no George, the visual is perfectly clear.     !!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Dax Hewitt]

You can get 3 meter or 6 meter lengths of just about any size mild steel from a website called the metal store. 

I found a good source was my local garage. They look after my vans and I asked if they could save me some springs. I ended up with loads. If you find your self up Leeds way I can sort you a few out.