Hot Armour

[Justin Caradoc]

I am an experienced SCA armourer. With starting Blacksmithing I want to forge armour to see if I can make better armour. The questions I have is:

When Dishing cold steal you can change it from 12 to 14 gague is this the same with hot metal?

Are there any kingdom/ society laws against doing this?

Do you need to temper the piece when it is hardened?

What metal is best?

and finaly has anyone ever tried to forge weild a face grill?

Just wanting some imput. :)

[Jmercier]

I think you mean raising instead of dishing, dishing is stretching metal out into a dished form, which thins the metal, raising however is pushing the metal around, and will cause metal to remain the same thickness at the center and to thicken at the edges.

You'll only need to temper the steel if you're using a carbon steel or spring steel and you harden it. Tempering is drawing back the hardness from a fully hardened state. When cold working metal you can work harden it, but this isn't the same thing. In fact usually you want to re-anneal a piece and then continue working it cold if you're not doing hot work, to keep it soft.

Another great site for your questions regarding SCA questions and armor work is The Armour Archive Thomas Powers here on this forum frequents there as well and can answer more of your questions better than I can.

[Glenn]

The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. make the rules. The Marshal's Handbook may be of some assistance or contact a heavy weapons marshal. Maryland is in Atlantia and the Earl Marshal web site may be of some help in your area.

[Justin Caradoc]

Thanks for the advise. I was hoping someone had made forged armour before and couls answer some of the questions. The only reason I asked the legal question was incase anyone had run into problems with forged armour before.

[eyrian]

A couple people here in Storvik have done that.

There is nothing about working hot that will affect the legality of the piece; all you need to do is check for the finished thicknesses (which will be easier to maintain when raising hot).

Tempering is going to depend on the steel you're using. Since you're only going up against rattan, I expect something tough rather than hard is called for.

Mild steel should be adequate for SCA combat. I've seen people use stainless for the low-maintenance, though it's much harder to deal with, and some people can spot the whiter shine (which you may not like if you're into authenticity). I've also seen aluminum, but I know virtually nothing about forging it.

I've never heard of a forge-welded face grill, but I've never asked.

P.S. There's a Storvik A&S social tonight (Friday) in College Park. I'll be there.

[Justin Caradoc]

Thanks Eyrian. I am getting ready for Highland river meeles tonight so I can't make the social.

[ThomasPowers]

"When Dishing cold steal you can change it from 12 to 14 gague is this the same with hot metal?"

A "cold steal" sounds like something that will get you into trouble! In general working hot does pretty much the same thing to the metal as working cold---except you don't get workhardening (both a good and a bad thing) and you do get scaling reducing the thickness of the metal, (how much runs from almost none to a lot depending on *you* and how you work it. Note that scale loss may be counteracted by being able to smooth the surface better and so removing less when you go to sand and polish it!

"Are there any kingdom/ society laws against doing this?"

No! But since hot working tends to prevent cracking from over work hardening they should encourage it!

"Do you need to temper the piece when it is hardened?"

Depends on the alloy and how it was hardened and what you want to accomplish with it.

"What metal is best?"

Gold, easy to work and you can sell your work by the troy oz! Best for WHAT????? Deep repousse? To make hardened armour from? Cheapest? Easiest to find? Easiest to work?.... How high is up? To get started I would suggest hot rolled mild steel; once you are up on how hot metal works you can think about alloys and heat treatment. (note that most folks making tempered armour are working it cold and then heat treating it.) No need for cold rolled if you are heating it anyway.

"and finaly has anyone ever tried to forge weild a face grill?"

Not that I know of. Few SCA armourers forge weld any part of the armour and few indeed would want the liability---if a weld fails you may end up blinding someone or *worse*---do you have the extre couple of million dollars to pay off a claim like that handy? (Liability is worse as it's a "non-standard process" for the "industry"...)

As was mentioned the armourarchive.org is really the place to get info on this.

As an armourer you know that 90+% of modern armour is done cold; but if you look at people like Mac or Ugo; veritable gods of modern armour working, you will notice that they have the ability to work hot and use it as needed. It also is a lot less wear and tear on the joints as you can use lighter hammers and much less shock is transmitted to the holding arm.

Edited June 13, 2008 by ThomasPowers

[Jmercier]

Ugo's work is awsome, and if you can find it on the armor archives, the threat ugo's foly or whatever, his "first attempt at spring steel" is just awsome too. One of my favorite metalworking humor threads of all time.

[Justin Caradoc]

Thanks for the info. I will check out armour archive once I get out of work. :)

[ThomasPowers]

see you there!

[Dallas de Marr]

You know, I leave Maryland and suddenly find people who do all the things I didn't think existed there! :P

[solvarr]

I know Master Eldrid from Burlington, NC does hot and cold work.

For hot work
He uses a torch rose bud
Last time I visited he was experimenting with a lidless casting furnace and placing the larger pieces across the top.

New Document

[Shane Stegmeier]

Doesn't Brian Thornbird cover this in "Technics of 14th Century Armour Reproduction"??? Thomas you didn't suggest patternwelded sheet... I want to see, and maybe wear fluted maximillian plate out of turkish twist damascus... I just don't want to pay for it or invest the time;-)

[solvarr]

"and finaly has anyone ever tried to forge weild a face grill?"

Not that I know of. Few SCA armourers forge weld any part of the armour and few indeed would want the liability---if a weld fails you may end up blinding someone or *worse*---do you have the extre couple of million dollars to pay off a claim like that handy? (Liability is worse as it's a "non-standard process" for the "industry"...)

The face grill that we use in the SCA is an SCA invention.
that isnt how they did most grills in period.
Grills were various types of punched and slitted sheet metal often with fluting.

if someone were to make a grill like you are talking about in period they would either rivet the joints, rivet between the bars or use mortise and tennon.

YouTube - Blacksmith Mortise and Tennon

[ThomasPowers]

Except that the actual period grills tended to be forge welded; there are a couple of examples out there. They might be rivited to the helm but the gridwork would be forge welded over riviting. As real wrought iron is much simplier to forgeweld than modern mild steel, many times things we would do differently today were forge welded then.

As has been noted visors. bevors, etc (or nothing) were much the norm over having grills.

[Justin Caradoc]

thanks. the forge welding idea was just something I was thinking about and wanted to know if anyone has done it. I still might play with it on pieces that are for show not heavy combat just to see if I can do it though :)

[dragonflySmithy]

For me I find it easier to hot form large pieces like placards and thigh plates. While other things are better worked cold.

[MADWORKS]

I'm a little confused as to what people are saying about raising and dishing. Now Justin said he dishes his metal FROM 12 gauge TO 14 gauge effectively thinning it, just the way dishing it should. Then Jmercier corrects Justin saying:

"I think you mean raising instead of dishing, dishing is stretching metal out into a dished form, which thins the metal, raising however is pushing the metal around, and will cause metal to remain the same thickness at the center and to thicken at the edges."

Since this comment the thread has assumed that the metal is being raised and not dished...

So my question is to Justin. Are we actually talking about raising or dishing here?

In my experience many pieces of armor require both hot and cold work for example an articulated elbow may have 4 lames and a cop. The lames can be cold dished as they require little work but the cop will probably have to be annealed once if you dish it or worked hot if you want a nice raised point. A great example of this is Eric Dube's work. He does all sorts of later period armor and he uses both hot and cold work to finish his harnesses. Here are two videos of his one showing hot work and one showing cold work.
YouTube - Fabrication d'armure médiévale Making of medieval armor #4
VS
YouTube - Fabrication d'armure médiévale Making of medieval armor #13
Hope this helps!
Marc

[P. Bedard]

Hey there.
Society minimum for helmets is 16ga. So when sinking your 12ga parts of it, not all, will thin out to close to 14ga. Still well within society rules. Of course you are work-hardening it too, so, even though it will thin out to 14ga, it will be at least as strong as 12!

If you want to lose less thickness, sink it hot (using a steel form and a lead hammer).
If you are able to raise a helmet bowl, then that's even better though you have to anneal your steel after a few passes. Hot raising is yet another method and gives very good results once you're used to it.
Good luck!

[pkrankow]

I think the confusion is on metal gauge in the first place. Thinner metal is a higher number of gauge.
Phil