Steel choice for a straight razor

[Jclonts82]

Looking for advice on steel options for making a straight razor.

A colleague at work has asked me to make him one, fixed blade not a folder (horay, much easier) at 2.5-3 inches blade length. I don't plan on doing a hollow grind, as my skills there are not up to par yet, so I think I will be doing a full (edge to spine) wedge shape/bevel. I have in the shop right now 1095, 52100, W2, 15n20, and I am perfectly willing to buy any other steel if the community here has a good preference. 

My tools I'm currently working with: Propane forge, mainly hand hammers, Log-splitter press with dies for drawing steel out only, 4X106 wet belt grinder (somacca) and a 4x36, and a 1x30. I usually quench all blades in heated canola oil. I use the forge for the hardening process, and it can hold temps pretty well for doing step-down (ex 1650-cool, 1600-cool, 1550 hold for 5 mins-quench)  thermal cycling before a quench.

I don't really want to send out for a heat treatment, but if there is a compelling steel that is above my skills/tools to harden properly I would be willing to send out to give it a shot. 

I appreciate any advice, I'm currently leaning towards the 52100 as I have had the best edge results with that steel. Since there is a range that is acceptable for these two the specs on my 51200 bar is listed at Carbon of 1.05% and the W2 is stated to be Carbon of 0.94%  

Thanks

[Daswulf]

SnailForge here has made and posted many straight razors. Maybe see what he liked. This post he mentions O2 as favorable. 

 

[Jclonts82]

10 minutes ago, Daswulf said:

This post he mentions O2 as favorable

I see that, I was trying to find THAT post that was mentioned in a few other threads, but was unsuccessful. Thanks

[JHCC]

The search feature on IFI isn't great. Try using the search engine of your choice, and include "iforgeiron.com" as one of your search terms.

[Daswulf]

11 minutes ago, Jclonts82 said:

I see that, I was trying to find THAT post that was mentioned in a few other threads, but was unsuccessful. Thanks

No problem, Seeing your post reminded me of that one. 

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I would also suggest that you get on the shaving forums like thestraightrazorpalace.com and badgerandblade.com and check out the maker pages. There are some other forums like shaveden, but I have not checked them out yet. SRP and B&B seem to be the IFI's of shaving forums.

A straight is one of the projects that I would like to do myself. I am new to straights and just now getting my gear together. I bought a couple of razors recently at garage sale and will be doing my first shave soon.

Besides the proper steel, you also need the proper stones for honing. An 8,000 grit looks to be the minimum, and some prefer to finish with a 12,000 before stropping. These stones are fairly pricey in their own right and folks have their preferences as to brands, natural vs man made, etc..There is great information on the honing aspect on those forums too. I have a natural Belgian coticule stone that is around 8,000 grit that I will be using, and I just picked up a new quality strop at a garage sale.  The best steels and heat treat mean nothing if you cannot get the edge on it.

[Jclonts82]

Forgot about the stones. I have a set of 5 that go from 1000 to 3000 to 7000 to 10,000 to 15,000 i think at the top end. 

 

 

I will check out those forums as well, lots of reading to do...

[Steve Sells]

If you want something different and super hard, try F1 steel

[Joël Mercier]

19 minutes ago, Steve Sells said:

If you want something different and super hard, try F1 steel

Didn't know such steel existed. Seems like W2 with a lot more tungsten. Do you know where to source it?

[Steve Sells]

I wish I did,  try someones old stock it is not being made commercially any more, my old teacher used to have a small supply of it

[Jclonts82]

for that matter, anyone know a source for O2 steel in the states? It seems nobody that I can find carries it. Plenty of O1, and a UK site that lists O1/O2 ? unsure what THAT is supposed to be. 

[Joël Mercier]

W2 can get pretty hard. it shines in the 61-62hrc range for kitchen knives. Though I have no experience in razors, that steel should do it. It's also pretty easy to work with and sharpen.

Edit: just saw you use canola. You may not get full hardness with it so 52100 seems the best option

[Will W.]

What about stainless steels? Typically more complicated on the heat treat, might have to send it off depending on what you go with, but i think i would want stainless for a blade that is almost always going to be damp. 440C or CPM S90V come to mind, both make excellent blades, IMO.

Ive heat treated 440C in my charcoal forge before, and even included a "cryo" cycle with acetone and dry ice, turned out well, its definitely trickier than any 10xx steel, however. Any of the CPM SxxV series steels should be sent out, they are not forgiving. 

Of course you could just apply regular carbon steel maintenance techniques and forget the SS.

If thats not something you want to go with, im sure 52100 would do just fine. 

[Joël Mercier]

Will W. Why not use aeb-l or nitro-v? They have been developed as razor stainless steel. If I remember well, 440c's edge is not ideal for razors. Those large chromium carbides(440c has plenty) don't make a very fine edge, well, not in razors terms. Aeb-l's recipe is designed to prevent chromium carbides formation.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

It isn't just getting a hard steel, it also has to do with how fine of an edge that can be put on it.  As it was explained to me, plenty of steels get hard, but they won't take the edge for proper shaving.

[Joël Mercier]

And it has to be "stropeable"

[Will W.]

Joel

The only reason i didnt recommend aeb-l or nitro-v is because i dont know much about either steel, never worked with them. I have worked with both steels i listed though, and got quite a nice edges on both. Perhaps not razor edges though. I tend to only recommend that which i have worked with myself. Sounds like Aeb-l would make a nice razor, however. 

[Daswulf]

In my own little opinion ( not that I've ever used a straight razor or know a lot about them) someone that is fanatical enough to use a straight razor would be good enough to care for said razor, and not need Ultra fancy stainless that requires crazy heat treat. I would think a good dry and oiling of the blade would be in the time frame of someone using one. ( could be wrong)

[Joël Mercier]

56 minutes ago, Will W. said:

Joel

The only reason i didnt recommend aeb-l or nitro-v is because i dont know much about either steel, never worked with them. I have worked with both steels i listed though, and got quite a nice edges on both. Perhaps not razor edges though. I tend to only recommend that which i have worked with myself. Sounds like Aeb-l would make a nice razor, however. 

I hope I did not offend you. I didn't work with those steels either but I did read a lot. In fact my gf says I spend too much time reading about knives and steels 

[Will W.]

1 hour ago, Daswulf said:

In my own little opinion ( not that I've ever used a straight razor or know a lot about them) someone that is fanatical enough to use a straight razor would be good enough to care for said razor, and not need Ultra fancy stainless that requires crazy heat treat. I would think a good dry and oiling of the blade would be in the time frame of someone using one. ( could be wrong)

Actually Das, thats a good point, i agree. Its the same thing with carbon steel kitchen knives, ive found. People who want them are willing to care for them. 

 

55 minutes ago, Joël Mercier said:

I hope I did not offend you.

Oh believe me Joel, you are going to have to try a lot harder than that if you want to offend me . You bring up valid points, and i appreciate you doing so. Also, im almost certain the idea of "too much time" spent reading about steel and knives is a myth. 

[Jclonts82]

4 hours ago, Daswulf said:

 fanatical enough to use a straight razor would be good enough to care for said razor, and not need Ultra fancy stainless that requires crazy heat treat. 

Thats my thinking too. The lab tech that asked for it is kind of a knife-a-holic, but not a smith. After running some of these steel choices by him he said probably not stainless for a razor. He liked the idea if O2, but we cand find any online, I sent 2 emails to some larger distributors to see if they would supply a smaller order, we will see if I get any responses. 

 

I also got a line on some quench oil from McMasrer carr, someone lical is gonna sell me 5 gallons, unused, for $50. That might be enough for the W2. 

 

So I'm thinking imI will make one out if 52100 and another from W2 and see which he likes more. The other will be a wedding gift for a cousin of mine that is starting to get into old style shaving. 

[sfeile]

I made mine out of leaf spring and it works quite well. Straight razors were actually my main reason to get into forging. Stainless doesn't take or hold an edge on a straight razor as well as a carbon blade. I only own carbon blades, but I have honed stainless razors for some other people. It is really a bit miserable to get a good edge on. 

Wiping down with a towel and a quick stropping of about 20 laps on linen after use is plenty to keep the blade dry and rust free. Works on mine every day.

The biggest thing to keep in mind when forging is the width vs thickness to keep an optimal bevel angle. IIRC the formula is roughly 3.6 to 1. When you take your thickness measurement on the spine, it should be where the stone comes in contact, generally this is at the top of your grind. The bevel angle on a straight should work out to about 16 degrees. Too much and you end up lifting the spine too far off your face and scraping as opposed to shaving.

Victor (bluesman77) makes razors and has helped me out a lot in my whole forging experience, and Bruno (snailforge) also makes razors and has been very friendly and helpful the times I have talked with him as well.

This was my third ever blade and first straight razor from my forge. Made from leaf spring, maple scales, 1/4 hollow grind, canola oil quenched, bevel set on a 1k stone and honed to 16K(ish) on a Japanese natural waterstone.

 

[Jclonts82]

9 hours ago, sfeile said:

. IIRC the formula is roughly 3.6 to 1

You recall correctly. From some other forums suggested to me, that is what I have found to be the preferred ratio. Looking at it, its not going to be very much steel. He wants a 2.5-3" cutting blade and not a folder, yours looks great BTW. So if the blade is 1/4 inch at the spine, that puts it at just under 1" spine to edge... and my stock is 1.5" wide, so the majority of the work will definitely be thinning  the whole thing and drawing the taper on the handle. To me, it doesn't feel right to just cut 1/2 inch off the width of the bar. I wanna hammer the whole thing.

 

Maybe I will do a rubic twist or something neat like that with the handle?

[sfeile]

1 hour ago, Jclonts82 said:

Maybe I will do a rubic twist or something neat like that with the handle?

Thank you. And yes, 1/4 inch thickness would put you at .9 inch blade width. That makes a pretty good size "chopper". Most of mine are between 5/8 and 7/8 as that is in my preferred size range.

I started with a billet I shaped to 1x4 and 1/4 inch thick. It still left me with a little bit too much width on my blade, but I had a much smaller tang than you are going to have making a Kamisori style and I took it down to a 7/8 width on a 3 inch blade. The twist would be a very nice touch giving it a bit of grip. Shave soap is quite slippery haha.

I would recommend going with a near wedge or even 1/4 hollow grind as opposed to a true wedge. Just for ease of honing and to lighten the blade a little to help balance it since you won't have scales on it. A true wedge you have to tape when honing to get your bevel whereas with a near wedge you can just use the spine as your honing guide. A 6 inch wheel has been recommended to me as a good size for grinding the hollow. I roughed mine in on my bench grinder and carefully refined it on the end of my 4x36 sander.

I haven't tried a half or full hollow yet, but the 1/4 hollow wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. So I'm sure you could pull off a near wedge with very little effort. Just remember that the edge is very very thin. whatever material you choose needs to be able to take an edge with almost no "meat" behind it. On a full hollow blade, even a half hollow, you can actually flex the edge with your fingernail they are so thin. Too hard of a steel and they will crack, too soft and they won't take the required edge.

Also "shaving sharp" for a knife, isn't for a razor. That is generally the level of sharpness you get when you set your bevel, then you hone it from there haha. If you are doing a near wedge grind, honing shouldn't be as much of a problem but with thinner grinds, pressure is your enemy as you will flex your apex off of the stone. Even so, you want very little pressure. A loupe will help you a lot in honing. I set my bevels on a 2k Shapton Pro stone, then go to 5k and 8k Shaptons, and then to Japanese natural stones from there to around 16k. Using the loupe you can see when you have all of your scratch pattern from the previous grit removed before you move up again.

When you hold it blade up, and take a single piece of hair with about an inch exposed, bring that free hanging end down on the blade and it pops cleanly off, you have a good razor edge.

[Jclonts82]

On 3/14/2018 at 12:29 PM, Jclonts82 said:

anyone know a source for O2 steel in the states? 

apparently looking for 90MnCrv8 is a better way to get results. It looks like this steel is not used much in the states, more of a European-Scandinavian commonality. But I have some coming in from Finland, so I have that going on for me, which is nice.