Begginner needs some help.

[Nitroheadache]

Hello All,

I apologize if this is not the correct room to post this question in or if the answer is extremely obvious.  I started this craft a few months ago and have searched far and wide for a good tutorial that explains how to forge a bottom fuller hardy tool.  I have seen a few videos on youtube, but they all seem to be using power hammers.  Like most beginners I do not have a power hammer, but I am in the process of building a striking anvil.  With that said, could someone point me in the right direction on this forum to a good tutorial for forging a bottom fuller?  Everything I search for seems to be images or descriptions of what people have forged. It really seems strait forward, but I would like to know what people use for stock at the start and the steps or little bits of experience that could be shared to help me do this right the first time.  Judging from the massive amount of posts and experience that has congregated here I am sure more than one person will be able to point me in that direction.  Thanks in advance and I look forward to some feedback on some of my future projects.

 

 

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Nitroheadache guy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be within visiting distance of other members. do you handle a lot of dynamite, work in a lab, ? ? ? Just curious.

Forging a fuller is a simple matter of forging a blunt wedge, setting shoulders and forging down the shank on the other end. Oh yeah, it's a power hammer job but a striker or two will make it a reasonable project. If you're thinking of forging it down solo you need to be one strong guy. 

Another technique is to grind one out of billet stock or weld one up. Grinding one down is pretty self explanatory so I'll describe ONE welded fuller. Assuming the hardy hole is 1" sq. buy or find a piece of 1" x 2" mild steel. Hack saw the shank out and weld a piece of round stock to the other end. 

Another fuller that works well is simply laying a piece of round stock on the anvil.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jclonts82]

25 minutes ago, Frosty said:

you handle a lot of dynamite, work in a lab, ? ? ? Just curious

my guess is nitroglycerine sublingual for angina/chest pain, side effect is major headache... just my profession leaking through... Maybe hot-rodding w/nitro?

 

following for interest too.

[Nitroheadache]

Thanks Frosty,

I used to be on a Army bomb squad.  The name came about from when I handled some old nitro based explosives in Afghanistan and got the worst headache of my life.  We were the ones taking care of all the explosive hazards, including IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I thought that I may be needing an extra hand when it came to forging this.  That was a good suggestion just welding a round stock onto a 1 inch square shank.  I may do that just for now, and then when I have my striking anvil finished attempt to forge one in a single piece.  I really enjoy making the tools that I use to make other projects and I am sure I can find some help as long as I tell them there will be beer there. 

Another question is, I read that if you do this on a normal anvil you could end up breaking the heel off from wedging the 1 inch stock too far into the hardy hole.  Is there any truth to that?

Thanks for the replies.

Also.  What size stock do you need to start with in order to forge a fuller and what type of metal should I use?  Yeah I have a lot of questions.

 

 

[JHCC]

29 minutes ago, Nitroheadache said:

I read that if you do this on a normal anvil you could end up breaking the heel off from wedging the 1 inch stock too far into the hardy hole.  Is there any truth to that?

It's possible, and certainly enough of a risk that you want to think twice about doing it (especially if you have an older wrought iron anvil welded up from smaller chunks). A lot of people use what's called a "striking anvil" or a "portable hole", which is a fairly beefy chunk of steel with a hardy hole in it, usually set at a lower height that's more suitable for sledgehammer work.

As for forging a fuller, take a look at Mark Aspery's video about making a swage. Everything up to about the two-minute mark is the same as what you'd do for making a fuller; the only difference is that from that point on, you'll be forging a wedge shape rather than flattening it further and putting in a groove.

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

You a saw bones, JC?

nitro, please edit your profile with your general location, not only is the US rather large we have 150 countries represented here. You may have a member with in visiting distance, and it helps us recomend sorses for stuff, such as using the cut off knuckles of sucker rod for your first hardy tool. 

The UN agricultural engineering department published 3 books of interest, beginning, intermidite and advanced blacksmithing. Thy tool forging sections are very helpful.

the simplest hardy tool is made buy fullering a peice of truck spring so that it will fit diagonally in the hardy hole, after fullering you forge the shank down to fit. So let's start their.

take a peice of round and bend it in a "Z" so it sets on the anvil face, this is your fuller, hammer your hot spring over it to form one sholder (1/2 the extra with of your hardy) now move tord the end and repeat  untile you reach the end, forge a 45 degree bevel on the end (just the depth of the fullering) and forge the bumps down to meet the values. Reheat as nesisary (yellow and oreng to forge, red to straiten and planish) now normaly you would fuller both sides at onece, but lacking an extra set of hands or a special tool we do it one at a time.

now flip and repeat. A bit of work to fit the hole, including file work may be nesisary, heat (don't heat the part you hammer on) and drive In to the hardy hole. 

Now you forge the working end, you can up set it to make a later fuller, draw and taper (start ant the end and forge backwards to avoid fish mouthing) eithe thin or blunt to form hit and cold cuts respectively, upset and round for fullers or a blunt 45 for a butcher. Butchers are not sharp they acualy are round ended so as not to form a cold sunt (a place a crac can start) forge one first, you will use it instead of a fuller to forge the shoulders of your next fuller. Then of corse we want to forge the fuller proper and then the hot cut. 

sucker rod is easier as you forge down the coller farthest from the threads to fit the hardy, and forge the hardy out of the threaded end. 

Hint, hot and cold cuts work best if shaped like exes instead of chisels. 

 

As to stock, obviously the hardy tools I decribed are made from spring (4060 or somthing like it) wile larger ones are typicaly 6040, sucker rod and car/truck axles are 4960 or a close cusin. 

Thanks for your service. 

[JHCC]

7 minutes ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

You a saw bones, JC?

No, why do you ask?

[Frosty]

Ah, bomb squad guy, "If you see me running try to keep up." Thank you for serving. 

Asking what size stock to use to make a fuller is like asking what size shoe should I buy. I have fullers that are small chisels rounded and curved. When I say small some are maybe 3/8" wide and they're more often used to vein leaves. However when I need to draw something in a tight spot they're the go to tool. Say I want the back of a leaf to point back around the stem like a heart. 

I've picked up a number of various bottom tools at auctions, barn sales, etc. over the years when I was actually looking. The most important thing to know about: fullers, swages, and the like is you'll probably never use them or so rarely it'll take you longer to find one than make another.

Hardies are a different matter, you'll use those frequently: One Hot, one Cold and a butcher or two just about covers the Hardies. Butchers come in different forms for different purposes. A sharp one is for cutting stock with one clean square face, the pinch off will be on the other side of the cut. Butchers with a rounded edge are used to set shoulders properly. You want the inside angle of a shoulder to be rounded, sharp corners concentrate conducted forces and are failure initiators. If you've ever taken a close look at a piece of snapped or torn steel you can find the POINT it began to tear, snap, etc. by following the little arrows. The surfaces that were actually torn apart will have a pattern of Vs that point to the initiation point of the failure.

Long digression I know but it's related. NO sharp inside corners unless you WANT it to break at that point. This is how a Cold hardy works, it incises a sharp V in the stock and you snap it off there, cold. 

I have a number of fullers and I'm much more likely to grab a piece of round stock, lay it on the anvil and do the task than I am to go looking for one. If I'd made my own fullers and swages I'd undoubtedly use them, almost nothing feels as good as using a tool you made with your own hands.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Nitroheadache]

Wow,  I wish I would have gotten on here 8 months ago when I started this journey.  Thanks for the explanations.  Frosty,  I imagine that you could forge whatever diameter fuller you wanted after you have the initial shank set.  So if you were going to forge the 1/2 inch diameter fuller bottom tool what is the size of stock you would start with?  Or am I not understanding your explanation well?

Thanks to all of you for the responses.

[4elements]

Nitro

I wish I knew how to post pictures. I haven't figured that out or i'd show you a couple of ways to make weld  on shanks that are not solid, that is not forged from the same billet. One is to bend a piece of 1/4 flat stock of the same width as the hardy hole into a 'u' shape, and another is to weld 2 pieces of angle apex to apex and grind the limbs (edges of the angles)  to fit. I don't claim credit, but I don't remember where I saw these ideas. Also thanks for your service

[Charles R. Stevens]

Acualy I was asking master clonts

[Frosty]

In my shop I'd take a piece of 1/2" stock to my band saw and cut the shank to fit diagonally in my hardy hole and grind the radius I needed. If you curve the end like an axe blade it makes a more efficient tool You'll be able to fuller straighter lines, requires less effort to drive and isn't as likely to bounce off line with the first couple blows.

What I describe as a how to is how I'd do it. If you want bottom tools that look like commercially made tools then you need to start with close to the largest dimension of the finished tool.

I'm just picking 2" for the purposes of discussion as a 1" shank will leave a 1/2" shoulder all round to disperse the hammer forces. You'll need kiss blocks. This tool has 1/2" shoulders so you need a 1/2" bottom kiss block and a pair of 1" kiss blocks to stop the forging at the desired thickness. A set hammer allows precision with the hammer. Kiss blocks keep it the right size and the bottom block keeps it centered. Turn the shank 1/4 turn every couple blows.

The next step is where you put your anvil at risk, setting the shoulder on the bottom tool. Bring it up to high yellow, drop it in the hardy and drive it down with a sledge hammer. The ONLY purpose of doing this is to match the shoulder around the tool to the face of the anvil. Don't get carried away, if you want it to swell out around the hardy hole then fuller it down a little above the shoulder but that's cosmetic.

The next step is get your strikers, a case of beer or whatever they're charging. You do realize this doesn't count as Free beer, they're going to earn it. yes?

forge it into a wedge, stopping maybe 1/4" or more before you reach the desired radius. You WILL need plenty to grid off to remove hammer marks, dings, etc. Blacksmith wisdom says, "forge thick, grind thin."

Remember to rotate the tool every couple blows to keep the ends squared up, steel under the hammer will smoosh in a circular direction proportionally to resistance. If you stay on top of it you can keep the ends dressed with a hand hammer but as the forge master (that's a job title) you're going to be the busy one. You have to direct their blows with the hammer in your hand, where you strike is where they strike. You'll need to work out signals to the strikers know whether to strike or not and how hard. You'll need to make small adjustment strikes with your hand hammer and if you have 3 guys with 12lb. sledge hammers mimic every one of yours mistakes will become permanent almost instantly. Make sense?

Elements just posted and needs to know how to post pictures. It's easy. At the bottom of the text window I'm typing in is a paper clip with a pretty self explanatory sentence. I don't drag and drop pics, I find attaching them more trouble free. Select  choose files  then select the files on YOUR computer I just double click and they upload as thumbnails below the text window. Place the cursor where you want the pics to appear and click the + symbol. Please reduce the file size to a couple hundred K to save bandwidth. Once the pic appears in the post you can click on it and adjust the size on the screen.

We LOVE pics you know. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Matthew D]

I found that old tie-rod ends work well for making a hardy tool.  Cut off the ball-joint and you are left with a fat end that can be shaped into a variety of tools including a nice bottom fuller.  Forge the threaded end to fit into your hardy.  You can find plenty of large tie-rod ends at  the local pic-a-part wrecking yard with all sort of sizes.  Plus, it is dang good steel.

Have fun!

[Jclonts82]

1 hour ago, Charles R. Stevens said:

Acualy I was asking master clonts

Farmer, cotton, by birthright (lol) Pharmacist by current trade.

 

... MASER!?!?  of what, getting too deep into projects I have no business dabbling in?

 

Frosty and Matthew D, great info. Thanks. I've been looking at making my own hardy tools lately, this helps a lot.

[4elements]

Thanks frosty, but I use my phone and regardless of it being called "smart", in this case it's dumb. That doesn't work. I'll have to use the home computer

[Nitroheadache]

That sounds like a lot of fun actually.  Im looking forward to it.  I am in central maine just in case someone is close by me.  

[4elements]

I finally got on the home computer to post pictures. First 3 are hardy shank methods I mentioned above. I have an unpowered smithy in a gazebo (4th picture), so I don't have a power hammer, no striker available either. I have another shop building with power where my arc welder and grinders are, so forging a hardy shank isn't really an option for me. I thought these ideas for weld on shanks would be worth a look for others similarly situated.

[Nitroheadache]

I understand what you are talking about now.  I think i would rather go the forge a shank first and then when i see how hard it is and then may e go to this method.  Thanks for the info.