Welder74 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 I built a forge my first one from pictures and from watching my favorite show forged in fire. I'll send pic everything seems to be working but I didn't insulate it and it get really hot after I turn it off. And I dont think it's getting hot enough. I've never even hit a piece of iron yet just had fun building tools for knife making. I build a very nice 2x72 belt grinder also and I'm in the middle of my power hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Welder74 said: everything seems to be working but I didn't insulate it Why did you not insulate it? Have you read the Gas Forges section on this site? There are many topics and discussions on insulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Ok I'll look. I guess I can cut it apart ,it's just tacked and put some insulation, but won't the fire brick smash the insulation down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 I didn't insulate my forge and after it runs for 15min I turn it off and it starts to heat everything up and 4hrs later it's still to hot to touch what should I do? I guess cut theTacks and add insulation. But what size?? And my iron won't get yellow hot welding temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 As Glenn already suggested, read the gas forges section of IFI. There loads of information and your questions have been answered countless times. If you do your homework you'll find people much more willing to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Please read the gas forges section of the forum. It really will answer a lot of your questions. For now, here's one key thing: there is a difference between refractory and insulation. Insulation (such as ceramic fiber/kaowool) prevents thermal transfer -- in other words, it keeps the heat inside the forge -- but usually isn't very strong. Refractory (such as Kast-O-Lite) tends to be a lot stronger and maintains its structural integrity at high temperatures, but doesn't insulate very well. Thus, a lot of folks here will build a forge with multiple layers: an inner layer of refractory (to withstand the heat of the forge and the inevitable knocks and bangs of workpieces being moved in and out) and an outer layer of insulation (to keep the heat in the forge), all contained within some kind of rigid shell. I'm not a gas forge guy, but there are lots of folks here who are. Ask the right questions, and you'll get great information. If reading over the gas forges section doesn't answer your question (and I mean really reading it -- there is a TON of information scattered through the various question-and-comment threads), at least you'll know enough to ask much better questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Thank you for your time and answers I will and have and it looks like I'm cutting it apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 At this point, your easiest path is to use ceramic board all around the inside of the forge walls and ceiling, and put as thin a piece of high alumina kiln shelf on top of the board for a floor, as you can find. Afterward, start researching thin hot face coatings for the ceramic board to toughen it up and extend its life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 It actually sounds a lot like the heater we have for the Master Bedroom. It's an enclosed bunch of firebrick that gets heated electrically overnight and then gives off the retained heat all day long. Or would if we used it. We don't heat the MB and the passive solar does a good job without electric back up---at least the last 13 years so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Thanks guys I can cut the Tacks but what size insulation should I get and is the insulation your talking about and replace the brick. If I don't do this will it ever get to forge welding temp. Wow the kaowool is expensive I have a friend that works at acme brick here in abilene and got the brick for$1 a piece and can get all you need by the way and the burners I'll send someone some and see what you think . All the burner stuff is next to nothing for me except the bell reducers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Kaowool is expensive??? You can buy it by the foot from folks like Wayne Coe and $20 worth can save you HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS during the life of your forge in propane costs. Most forges we suggest two 1" layers; but that is assuming a treated kaowool contact layer, If it will have firebrick facing then a 2" thick bat will do just as well. Can you ever get it up to forge welding temperature? If you push enough BTUs into the forge it will get to forge welding temperature even with a straight firebrick liner---industrial forges often were done this way, though even they are getting insulative refractories nowadays to hold costs down. I mentioned having friends who use such forges and needing at least an hour of full blast heating to get the forge up to temp and then it welds like crazy all day long. So after complaining about cost you want to spend tons of money on fuel to get around insulating your forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 The forge is doing exactly what it was designed to do, produce heat. You want to heat the INTERIOR of the forge and not the entire room. Insulation keeps heat from transferring from the interior of the forge to the entire room. This uses less fuel, and is more efficent. How much insulation depends on type of insulation you use. You can then size the forge to the amount of interior space you want, plus the insulation thickness, plus other factors, and plus the thickness of the metal used to construct the forge shell. Consider the rating on the different insulations, as that effects the thickness of the insulation. You can reverse engineer the forge build, add the numbers together, and answer most of your questions. Look up the amount of BTUs each burner puts out, and what size area this will heat. You do this in order to figure out the interior size of the forge, based on the project size you are going to work. This will determine how many burners you need to heat that volume of forge interior. BEFORE you contact them, READ the entire gas forge section, TWICE !! Contact Mikey and find out how to purchase his book. Contact Wayne Coe for his skill and expertise. Others on the site (such as Frosty) are also great sources of information. You will find out who they are by reading what they have posted in the gas forge section. If you show them you have done your homework and have tried, they should be very helpful. They have the knowledge you seek, but do not expect to be spoon fed. They can only be expected to help if your questions are based on facts and the knowledge you have added to YOUR data base. Pack a lunch and a cold drink and start reading. It will answer a lot if not most of your questions. You may want to review the post on how to deal with a curmudgeon. Not calling any of them curmudgeons, but the information on the subject is very useful. (grin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 I cut it with a diamond blade for my skill saw. Make sure to wear a good respirator. Ideally a wet tile saw would be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Welder 74: Do NOT cut it apart until you've done some reading! It'll help keep you from making more mistakes. Take a good look at how to plumb your burners too, the way you did it isn't very versatile and is really over complicated. There are a lot of refractories and meanings for the word. In the sense of furnaces it's usually meant to be heat resistant. IN other places it's used to mean hard, abrasion resistant, tough, etc. the armor on an A1 Abrams tank is refractory in the tough and hard meaning of the word. Okay forget all the meanings for "refractory" except heat resistant. Kaowool is a refractory ceramic wool blanket though it isn't high temperature enough and is certainly too fragile to stand alone as a good forge liner. It's been used as a stand aloe forge and furnace liner though it's just not a good idea on several counts. 1st. it's fragile and welding flux dissolves it like hot water on cotton candy. Secondly and more significantly for long term health, ceramic blanket is made of fibers and when heated by a gas burner worthy of a forge it fires into a porcelain needles. You really want to avoid breathing porcelain needles! The current consensus for efficient and durable forge liners is an insulating outer liner and a hard relatively chemically resistant inner liner (Flame Face) and a final thin coat of even more chemically resistant and IR re radiating kiln wash. There is a LOT of discussion of forge building, materials, techniques, shapes, sizes and the why of them all in the gas forge section. There is a current discussion going on that is more advanced musings by folk who have been making the things for a while, decades in some cases and we don't agree on lots of things. Don't get hung up trying to understand what we're talking about till you have a handle on forges, burners and how they work. I also say REPEATEDLY how to get your ceramic blanket without breaking the bank and NO it's not at a ceramic supply! I'll let you find that little tidbit if you do some reading. Yeah, it's a teaser, I haven't had to purchase Kaowool for more than 25 years, I dumpster dive for it though they usually bag it for me. You'll see "high alumina" in conjunction with refractories often that's because most refractories, Kaowool included are silicate ceramics and HOT welding flux is caustic and dissolves silicate ceramics. Alumina ceramics on the other hand don't even so much as notice HOT caustics on them so it's a preferred choice for the Flame Face. Phosphate and Phosphate bonded refractories are also very chemically resistant and typically rated for more heat than we ever get in our forges but it's not as common and more expensive. Relax and do NOT get in a hurry, a couple nights worth of reading, taking notes, making sketches (I REALLY like graph paper for concept sketches it's very scale friendly) and print off things that interest you. Getting in a hurry is oly good if you want to make mistakes FAST. Once you've done a little reading a lot of your answers will demystify, you'll have a handle on the jargon, be able to ask better questions and understand the answers. We WANT to help you get up and going honest but it's going to take effort on several fronts and the ball is in your court. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 22 hours ago, Glenn said: Contact Mikey and find out how to purchase his book. Per his request, I posted a clean link in that forum that I found to download it for free. His book is no longer in print and has no estimated re-print date so unless you want to spend more than $150 for it on amazon or ebay the download is the only way you're going to get it. If you can't find it, shoot me a personal message and I can email it to you. (I saved it to my desktop before printing it out.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 24, 2017 Author Share Posted May 24, 2017 Wow y'all know what your talking about and yes time to read read read, i built it so fast I didn't even know what they was made out of so I used what I had 1/4" steel and fire brick. So I reckon I'm gonna have to make it even heavier now I already weighs bout 200lbs, glad I didn't use 1/2" that's all we use at work. But Frosty thank you again I'm gonna do my best, to not cut it apart, part of me want to do it all over from scratch but I'm already done except welding it out, so I'll look up the allumina ceramics and see what I can find. I think I need to make it smaller anyways I'm only making knives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Welder guy: I don't think I mentioned it but you do good fab work and on further thought I'm pretty sure you can cut it apart and reline it without screwing things up. I just didn't want you jumping to conclusions and making decisions before you had a better handle on what you needed to do. I haven't built a gas forge out of steel heavier than 14ga. and 3/16"(I think) x 1" angle in I don't know how long. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Yup almost all the folks I know using propane forges have ones that can be picked up and moved by 1 person. Not a real virtue in making it heavier than it needs to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 which is the main reason I like old propane, and non-refillable Freon and helium cylinders. However, I am seeing a strong desire by many people to build box forges, and so it seems we should help them do a good job of what they have the bound-to-do-it-my- way druthers for. So, I will begin by pointing out that commercial box forges use bends in the metal plates, and/or screw plates to angle to avoid weld work, which does not allow the steel to expand and contract without warping during thermal cycling... I was a multi certified welder for forty years, and have never so much as put a temporary tack in forge or casting furnace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mberghorn Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 On 5/24/2017 at 1:50 PM, Scrambler82 said: Where did you post the link ? thks It's in the Burners 101 thread on page 17 a little more than half way down the page. It is a large file though. My work email won't let me attach it to an email because it's too big. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 26, 2017 Author Share Posted May 26, 2017 After reading a lot and trying to do the best job I can I'm gonna cut it apart and cut it down to a two burner forge with insulation and I change the 2" brick for 1" and as far as the shell I'm stuck with 1/4" plate or bigger, nothing is light weight in the oilfield, and it's all Scrap anyway. So my only question I couldn't find an answer to is, do you make 1" stands to put brick on or do you squish they insulation down with the brick? The reason for making it smaller is I'm only wanting to make some knives so later I can always build a bigger forge. If I need to. Thank you so muchyour you guys are awesome help, hope I can help y'all someday, I too am a highly certified rig welder, that's all I've ever done, if that can be of any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted May 26, 2017 Author Share Posted May 26, 2017 I want to make knives but only with Damascus so I have to learn to forge weld. Being a welder for 23 years I've got a grasp on it, but I'm always ready to learn and forge welding being the first weld ever made I want to be able to do it. I hear that a man can sell well made Damascus billets so if I don't like making knives I can always make billets just to sell for fun not trying to get rich. Again on the insulation should I make little stands for the brick, so it don't squish the insulation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 30, 2017 Share Posted May 30, 2017 On 5/26/2017 at 10:35 AM, Welder74 said: should I make little stands for the brick, so it don't squish the insulation? Assuming you are referring to ceramic blanket, squish away. One of the reasons this form of backup insulation is so popular is that it is springy, but only until it takes a "set." This usually take three or four thermal cycles; afterward, it becomes very firm, whether or not you are smart enough to use rigidizer. Ceramic board, which also takes a set, starts out firm, and gets even firmer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 How much firmer? It can be held in place with a couple of sheet metal screws, once it takes a set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welder74 Posted June 4, 2017 Author Share Posted June 4, 2017 Thanks again y'all I'm redesigning it after a lot of reading. And more reading, alot of these I would like to respond to but they post are year many years old. Some new ones help too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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