Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Ok, so I made a burner a while ago and the forge body I made for it wouldnt heat up, so i figured i needed better insulation and maybe less room inside the forge. I recently finished the forge body. The issue seems to be more burner related, flames about 5 inches in length are coming out of the ends of the forge, when i blow into the back end of the burner the flames shorten and it sounds like there is more heat(hard to describe what I mean). I think the issue is a lack of air to the burner. With the amount of heat it is producing rebar only heats up to about bright orange color but will not get hotter. I have almost no experience with gas forges and their burners, so I guess I am trying to figure out what I should do to increase the heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VainEnd84 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Could you post some pictures and perhaps a video of your set up running? Will help folks her to diagnose the potential issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 The issue sounds like your Air:Fuel ratio. Your "not enough air" sounds like it's the most likely thing, though much more information is needed for a proper diagnosis. Photos would certainly help, including pics of the burner and a wide shot of the forge in operation. Ideally, there will be a wide shot in the dark across the mouth of the forge to show the Dragons Breath clearly. Bear in mind that "not enough air" is pretty much the same as "too much gas". Depending on your burner design, a smaller gas jet might be a quick and easy fix. When it comes to gas jetting, many people seem to assume that more must be better. In reality, it's a little more complicated than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 alright, here is a bit more to work off of. Pictures of the burner and the tank its attached to, and videos of the flame both inside of the forge and outside. I blew into the air intake in the second video to show what I mean about the lack of air.DSCN0613.MOV DSCN0614.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Start by removing the completely worthless pipe from the reducer's large opening; the only thing it can do there, is to restrict air flow. Then, replace the reducer fitting with with a larger one. If that other pipe is 3/4" size, than you would need a 2" x 3/4" reducer. While you have the cross pipe out, you can....oh wait. Why not just look up how to build a proper version of that burner design on Ron Reil's burner pages on the web? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 There are some major deviations from what I would regard as normal practice when it comes to home-made forge burners. The inlet pipe Mikey mentions is unhelpful. I think the designs that use something similar tend to do so primarily as a means to clamp the gas tube in place. Yours appears to have the gas pipe located in the reduced section where it cannot be clamped by that inlet pipe and where it offers the greatest possible restriction to airflow without actually providing any of the Venturi effect the majority of NA burner designs strive for. You also seem to be running without a regulator, which strikes me as extremely unwise. I get the strong impression you do not understand the basic principles and that your lack of understanding goes way beyond anything that could realistically be dealt with in a forum post. For many people, the required understanding comes through observing what happens when things are changed during operation. To reach this stage, it is helpful to have something that is reasonably functional as a starting point. I would strongly advise that you find a design that is proven to work in your application and build (and operate) a burner EXACTLY to that design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted February 12, 2017 Author Share Posted February 12, 2017 strangely enough I think I do understand why it isn't working, now that I have had a look at the burner design I had mimicked. I promise I wont run the burner until I have built a new one that operates properly and a regulator. From what I am gathering, it seems that the air isn't entering properly because I have the jet too far into the reducer bell. The reducer bell isn't large enough to let enough air in either, which makes the mix too rich in propane. This is why there are flames shooting out either side of the forge body, because there isn't enough air inside the forge, so when it meets the air outside the forge it has the oxygen to burn the propane. If I'm wrong about that then I will do more research so I understand how it works better. It will be a while before I can gather enough funds to pay for the new materials for the burner, but like I said, I wont run it until I have a new burner and regulator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 13, 2017 Share Posted February 13, 2017 I tend to buy plumbing fittings at the fleamarket and ReStore; I expect it would cost US$10 to get enough to do it properly. Now a good regulator is more pricy but I have bought one as low as $3 at the fleamarket off a damaged turkey fryer. Didn't tell the seller I was tossing the damaged fryer part on the scrap pile and just use the hose and regulator off it. If I had to wait till I could afford a wedding ring at Tiffany's I'd still be single; buying one at a pawn shop I've been married 32 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted February 13, 2017 Author Share Posted February 13, 2017 Thank you for the advice about how to find things cheaper. I will look for my local resources. I still have to find work, at the moment I am taking classes and have not yet landed a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 quick question. Why the 2x3/4 reducer? The burner in the Ron Reil style is 1 1/2x3/4. Just want to know what I should be picking up and why its important that I get that particular size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Look at his burner pages again. The reducer fitting on the original Ron Reil style burner is 1-1//2" x 3/4"; but it is increased to a 2" x 3/4" reducer for the MIG tip change over. That was my first burner development way back then; it was needed to allow all the air induction that the new gas jet produced, to actually flow. You will also find that this change permits the use of step flame nozzles to replace tapered nozzles, also increasing performance, and simplifying nozzle construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 16, 2017 Author Share Posted March 16, 2017 Any ideas where I can find it locally? I've been looking at ace and lowes, neither have the parts I need. Should I just go ahead and order them online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 It? Which IT in the list of needed parts are you referring? If you are looking for plumbing parts go to a plumbing supplier NOT a big box store like Lowes or a general hardware store like Ace. A plumbing supply WILL have a large selection of all sizes iron pipe, copper tubing, brass fittings, etc. The folks at the counter will gladly help you find what you need. Just do NOT tell them you're making a propane burner! for liability reasons they can't help Joe Anyperson experiment with products that can kill and main not just them but their family or maybe an apartment full of folks. Repeat do NOT say ANYTHING about making a forge burner! How about hooking up with a local blacksmith, Kitsap isn't out in the boonies you have access to one of the larger more active blacksmith organizations in the United States, the NWBA. I don't think they charge just to attend a meeting and ask for help. Seriously you don't live in some hidden backwoods cave it's not like you live in Alaska for Pete's sake. Seriously just print out a copy of Ron's plans and FOLLOW THEM CLOSELY! No, you aren't going to improve it a teensy little bit by thinking up some new change, honest you aren't. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 I get the feeling that you might be under and impression that I don't want to dish out the money to do it properly. I am more than willing to do that, I will look into the blacksmithing community out where I live. It looks like I need a new pipe and reducer. Do I need to replace the whole set of brass jet fittings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 No I'm not talking about spending money, not counting the regulator, hose and correct size drill bits and taps a 3/4" burner costs me about $10.00. No, I was suggesting you print out a set of Ron Reil's burner plans and follow them as closely as possible. His design works if you follow the plans closely and you don't have to try figuring out how to make it work. Heck print out a copy of the Illustrated T burner plans, that one's even easier to make. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 With regards to the flare adapter you talk about in your instructions. Is this it? I guess I dont understand the terminology behind it:https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-1-4-in-x-3-8-in-Compression-Compression-x-MIP-Adapter-Adapter-Fitting/50359448 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodnMetalGuy Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, ionicmuffin said: With regards to the flare adapter you talk about in your instructions. Is this it? I guess I dont understand the terminology behind it:https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-1-4-in-x-3-8-in-Compression-Compression-x-MIP-Adapter-Adapter-Fitting/50359448 No, that's a compression fitting. What you want to use to hook up to copper tube is a flare fitting of the appropriate size for the tube. Here's an example of a flare fitting: https://www.lowes.com/pd/BrassCraft-1-2-in-x-1-2-in-Threaded-Flare-x-MIP-Adapter-Adapter-Fitting/50380844 You need a flare nut to go with that. To make the connection, you slide the nut on the tube, then use a flaring tool to flare the end of the tube, then screw the nut onto the fiting, trapping the tube in between. -- Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 No, the plans call for a 1/8" mpt x 1/4" flare fitting. The 1/8" MPT has an inside diameter appropriate to tap 1/4" x 28 so the mig contact tip can be mounted in the burner. The tap size is NOT the only size Mig contact tip thread size. You MUST find out what you have available and adjust your tools to match what you can get. This you find out at the welding supply. Forget shopping at LOWES, The Home Depot, Ace, etc. you really need to buy parts at a "plumbing supply," same for the mig tips, Lowes carries contact tips and wire feed supplies but they do NOT have anybody there who knows anything about them nor support tools. A welding supply has the right tools to maintain the welders they sell and service. Seeing as it's fairly common to damage the threads in the mig gun they carry THE CORRECT TAP to clean them up. Taps will have the correct drill bit size printed on the tap. Take the correct drill bit with you when selecting the MPT - Flare fitting this way you won't buy one with a through hole too large to tap. Dave: Ionicmuffin is confused already so giving him an example of the right kind of fitting that's the wrong size is likely to confuse him more. It's a lesson I learned a long time ago so I try real hard to only use THE right part for examples. I know it's a picky detail but a lot of these guys are exploring dark country and get lost easily. I'm going to skip the amusing cautionary adage we repeated almost daily at work, maybe in a PM. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodnMetalGuy Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Frosty - yes, good point. I was trying to explain the difference between compression and flare fittings, and am sorry if I confused the issue! -- Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 1 hour ago, WoodnMetalGuy said: Frosty - yes, good point. I was trying to explain the difference between compression and flare fittings, and am sorry if I confused the issue! -- Dave S'Okay Dave and you were right about fitting type. I don't k now how many guys have come up with a way to tap the T to take the flare threads and screwed a hose to the other after adapting the threads. <sigh> There's nothing to be sorry for Dave, you contribute plenty I don't think you confused the muffin man more than he already is. Everybody has to start somewhere and those of us who like helping them through the dark are always finding things of our own to tune up. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 ok, I stopped by a Ferguson and this is what they gave me. Its a 1/4 x 1/8. I dont want to drill into a tee if its the wrong part, so I'll return it if its wrong. And thank you guys for helping me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 AlRIGHT Graham! That's the fitting. Do yo have the correct drill size to tap a 1/8" Female pipe threaded hole? The drill bit and tap for whatever Mig contact tip you have? The mig tip threads are actually the hardest part to find reliably. Find out what you have available BEFORE drilling the T, once you start drilling and tapping you do NOT want to move the floor flange in the drill press! Do you have a drill press or access to one? A 3/4" short pipe nipple and a 3/4" floor flange? You're about to be making HOT fire! Oh, my manners. You're welcome Graham, glad to help. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 I have access to a drill press and I believe the shop also has all the taps I will need. If not I will pick up the ones I need. I can pick up a floor flange and short pipe nipple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Gates(Ionic Muffin) Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Few more questions. Bits Needed: 5/16" drill bit---not a problem I can get my hands on this 1/8" pipe tap---What is a pipe tap? Is it 1/8 npt 27 threads per inch? npt being the national pipe thread. #3 drill bit---.213 drill bit. ¼"x28 tap---seems self explanatory but just to be sure, thats 28 threads in 1 inch right? Thanks! Graham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 A FPT tap taps a hole to screw tapered pipe into. I see where I made that more confusing than necessary, my bad. Yes, the second number in a thread size is the threads per inch. Just make sure the mig contact tips you have available are 1/4"x28 or buy the drill bit and tap to work with what you do have available. The guys at the local welding supply had no idea what the threads on the mig tips are so I brought a 1/4" x 28 nut and tested them myself. Then it turned out they have appropriate taps for the different brand mig tips they stock. Are the illustrated T burner instructions clear enough on how to use the floor flange and close nipple in the drill press? I just keep changing drill bits for taps and hand turn the taps to keep everything aligned. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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