Glenn Trump Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Hello everyone! My name is Glenn and I'm starting my journey down the path of fire, sparks and creation. Those three things also happen to be one of my most favorite aspects about living on this planet. In a few months I will be purchasing a gas powered forge for forge welding and have narrowed my choices down to these two: The Majestic Forge 3 burner knife maker deluxe and the Thermal Art Design blade smith 2 forge. I was hoping I could get an opinion for the merits of each forge. Whether you are a Novice, an Intermediate, a Expert or a Master I would like to hear from you Thanks in advance, Glenn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubalcain2 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 welcome to the forum! i would probably belong in the intermediate category, so take this with a large grain of salt, but here is my 2 cents. i have been using coal for a while, and am about to switch to propane myself. I would recommend looking at Diamondback Ironworks propane forges. i have not used one personally, but i have heard great things from folks who have. the man that owns the company is a forum member, though he hasn't posted in a long time. they have several forges that are in the same price range, but have a side door, which is a big plus. the floors to the forges are better as well as they are flux resistant. they are definitely who i am going to buy mine from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnBello Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I might not have much information (or formation) myself, but sometimes have some ideas (good or bad). Have you considered making your own? I would start with the famous Frosty T burner (a quick search in the forum or even google can get you there) Of course there are pros and cons to everything, so I'l list my thoughts: Buying a premade forge: Just buy it & use it, no set up time, guaranteed to work with little to no tuning. More expensive, and might be difficult to tune or modify if you ever need to. Making your own: A lot cheaper, completely customizable for your needs, can be built fairly quickly, but it might take some time to tune it perfectly. You are your own guarantee (which can be good or bad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Trump Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 I really appreciate the replies and I have some research to do before I can speak individually on each point. The only issue I have with constructing a forge is that I believe pressurized gas burners are superior to free flow gas burners in that they are capable of higher temperatures and provide a more stable heating enviroment. I know that contructing a pressurized gas burner can be extremely dangerous. The first forge I posted has 3 burners of non-pressurized gas with bronze needles whereas the second only has two burners but is pressurized and are steel as opposed to bronze. I could buy a unit assembly for pressurized gas constructed out of steel but ONE is almost 1/4th the cost of the entire two burner forge @approx 96 USD for the burner alone, no pipes or anything like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beammeupscotty Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I am not sure what you are talking about when you refer to pressurized gas as opposed to free flowing gas. Those are not terms I have heard used before in reference to forges. Could it be you mean atmospheric burners compared to forced air burners? Also the specific characteristics you ascribe to each i.e. higher temperatures and stable heating environment do not seem accurate to me. I think forced air burners may be capable of higher heat but only at the expense of a much more oxidizing atmosphere which can wreak havoc with scale. Both of the forges you have referenced are atmospheric forges and both use pressurized gas, which is where the confusion I mentioned in my first paragraph comes from. Of the two I would not recommend the thermalartsdesign forge. I have one of their burners and although they look great, they do not seem to put out as much heat as others that I have used. I purchased and tested a hybridburner, a thermal arts design burner and a Zoeller burner and of the three the hybridburner, without question, puts out the most heat, followed by the Zoeller burner. I have never purchased a commercially made gas forge. They are so simple to assemble yourself that I could never justify the expense. I would however, suggest purchasing a commercial burner. None of the several home made atmospheric burners I have made over the years comes close to the heat output of the hybridburner I currently run my propane forge on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Actually forced air burners are usually MUCH more easily adjustable for atmosphere; I've used mine anywhere from massively oxidizing (for an ornamental surface finish) to extremely reducing. Much better range than on my NA forge---yup I have several propane forges of different types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Welcome aboard Glenn, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance. Given the choice I'd take a Majestic over any Thermal product. For now at least, having looked at both The Majestic line of products has many years of experience and development and the other is a newcomer. Not that I have anything against new products but having looked at the Thermalart products I've been seeing burner designs that are at least a decade out of date for home builds let alone commercially built. I believe you are referring to Naturally aspirated, often mis called "atmospheric" and "venturi" burners. These are induction devices that rely on a jet of pressurized gas or liquid to induce a flow of secondary liquid or gas. In short a high velocity jet of propane flows into a tube that is open up stream of the jet. The gas expands in the tube and causes a low pressure zone that induces a flow of air which and makes a flammable fuel air mixture and burns in the forge chamber. The other main burner type is commercially referred to as a "gun" burner, often called a "blown" or "super charged" burner. This type relies on a forced air source to which propane is introduced in the proper ratio which burns in the forge chamber. Neither type is inherently superior to the other, how much heat a burner produces is strictly a function of how much fuel air mix can be introduced in a furnace per second. PERIOD. Both use pressurized propane, methane, acetylene, hydrogen, etc. Unpressurized methane is a fart. (sorry, I couldn't resist, it's a fault of mine) The inherent difference between the main types is: #1, Ease of construction a NA burner requires more shop skill to build and tune. Once tuned the fuel air ratio will raise or lower in a practically flat curve so you can just turn it up or down by adjusting the gas pressure to the jet and adjust furnace temperature. Gas pressure is the ONLY power a NA burner requires. #2, Once built a gun burner requires more fiddling to tune to a specific output. Basically you have to adjust both fuel and air to control the flame properties while adjusting furnace temp. That's it, one is easier to build but a little harder to adjust. Oh, a gun requires electricity, almost forgot that one. Both Majestic and Thermalart uses Naturally Aspirated (NA) burners. Have you considered building your own forge? Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Trump Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 That is a lot of great information I kind of feel like I'm cheating getting such good advice...granted I'm a long ways away from properly understanding most of it. The current issue I have with the majestic line is that I cannot find the specs for their burners. I'm trying to find out how many BTUs it can kick out and what PSI it runs at. The JF #1 burner majestic uses kicks out 160,000 BTUs and is capable of running 1-60 psi but generally runs between 3-15 psi to function. Whether I build or buy I believe the burner is the most important. Unfortunately I lack the proper tools and a fair but of know-how to make a good forge. Thanks for the advice, Glenn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 How I got around that was to attend a forge building workshop put on by my local ABANA affiliate. Spent one Saturday building gas forges assembly line and then everyone drew a number for the forge they got. (Keeps people from doing high quality work on "theirs" and low quality on the rest...) For the two burner NA one, the cost covered everything but the propane tank and was very reasonable! Having experts doing the tough parts and being able to troubleshoot things was well worth the drive! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VainEnd84 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 3 hours ago, Frosty said: Unpressurized methane is a fart. ... I don't know about you Frosty but my methane comes out quite highly pressurized That being said, building a T burner isn't overly difficult, and they work very well! But I do love making stuff so the sense of accomplishment is always a bonus to me.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Hi Glenn, what part of the state are you in? I have a bunch of extra old propane tanks. If you decide to go the building route, you could have one or two. I've only built one forge so far, but it works pretty well and I got some great advice from Mikey on the burner I built, so it's working well too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Trump Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 1 hour ago, John in Oly, WA said: Hi Glenn, what part of the state are you in? I have a bunch of extra old propane tanks. If you decide to go the building route, you could have one or two. I've only built one forge so far, but it works pretty well and I got some great advice from Mikey on the burner I built, so it's working well too. I live in Snohomish, WA. Snohomish and Olympia are quite distanced...though I have been itching to visit our capital city. Maybe one day I will make my own forge but I'm OK with supporting small businesses that work hard to make a good product. Once I know more about the craft I'll absolutely make my own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Snohomish, Ah HAH! I was born in Everett and have relatives all over the Pac NW. You're finding a pitfall most of us found breaking into a craft. Overthinking things looking for the best or perfect: tool, machine, layout, whatever is common, we've all done it. I've been telling folk this for years, forget what psi someone else's burner runs under. PSI is only one variable of many, elevation being a biggy but humidity can often be more significant. Water takes up space in air has a VERY high specific heat and the oxy is unavailable at the temps our forges run. As a general rule of thumb, figure one well tuned 3/4" (that's the ID of the burner tube) burner will bring 300-350 cu/in to welding temperature. That assumes a well built forge chamber that's insulated. Old school we ran uncoated Kaowool forge liners and replaced them regularly as a matter of course. The general consensus now days is 2" of 8lb. ceramic blanket insulating refractory, Kaowool being one brand. with an inner liner of approx 1/2" + of a high alumina hard refractory, usually cast for ease of application. Finally a zirconium oxide containing kiln wash. There are a lot of posts describing the hows and whys in the gas forge subsection, Forges 101 is a good thread. Don't get too convinced of any tool's superiority till you've had some time to use a number of them, knowledge and experience make up for an amazing array of faults in low end tools. Just don't get in a hurry and you might not end up with as many not so good forges and other tools gathering dust as most of us have. Someone in the NWBA (North West Blacksmith Association) will speak up shortly I'm sure but get hooked up with them. You'll learn more in a couple hours working with an experienced blacksmith than day trying to figure it out yourself. It'll also put you in contact with tools, equipment, supplies and help. They're a great bunch. Don't be self conscious about a bunch of us jumping in to give advice and other help, we LOVE contributing to someone's blacksmithing addiction. We're like that, honest we are. Frosty The Lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Oly, WA Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Yes, they are a bit. I have an aunt in La Conner and one of my brothers lives in Sultan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanternnate Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 From one beginner to another try not to make it too complicated, which I am going to say is far easier said than done. Also, building your own is an option, and if you are properly equipped and skilled you can save some money. I wouldn't feel like you need to though. There are options out there that are not significantly more expensive than the sum of the parts (especially if you would need to acquire certain tools to do the job). I ended up buying a forge because for me this is a hobby, and I have limited free time to spend on it. I wanted to spend my time forging rather than building a forge. For some I think the project of making the forge is in and of itself an enjoyable part of the hobby, and if you think that would be the case for you go for it. Nothing wrong with buying a forge to get going quicker though. The trap I fell into was trying to find a forge that could do ANYTHING I might ever want to do. I'll save you the hassle of repeating my search, such a forge doesn't exist. Figure out what it is you really want to do (and have the other needed equipment to do) right now and get something appropriate for that knowing you might need to buy or build something else for different purposes down the line. For me right now it is bladesmithing, so I bought a Graham Forge from Atlas Knife Co. that is made specifically for that purpose. That forge also proves out the don't make it too complicated point. The burner is a piece of pipe with a gas jet welded to it. It's super simple, but it just works. It isn't a recommended forge for lots of welding because the liner is soft fire brick that wouldn't like flux. He has a "budget" model that uses the wool liner that might be more appropriate for sacrificial flux devouring. Your post said you were looking to have the forge for forge welding, but I noticed both forges you linked to are "knife maker" forges. What type of forge welding are you looking to do? From what I've found those that are looking to do serious forge welding of Damascus are using vertical forges often. Also keep in mind some of the other requirements beyond the forge. If you are planning to forge weld big stacks a power hammer or hydraulic press start to come into the equation. Lower layer count stuff and other forge weld techniques like san mai should theoretically be doable by hand. I've yet to build up the confidence to try. If it is just coincidence you were looking at knife maker forges you can promptly ignore what I just said Also consider the fuel needs of whatever forge you go with. Something with 3 burners needs more fuel than something with 1 obviously, but there are other tag along things with that. The larger forge with more burners is going to need more fuel and therefore be more expensive to run, but it will also draw fuel much faster giving you potential tank freeze up issues. My single 100K BTU burner runs just fine on a regular 20lb propane tank. The guys with bigger forges with more burners are running 40-100lb tanks to avoid freezing up. Also, keep in mind if you are going the bladesmithing route you only need to be able to work a certain amount at a given time. As long as the forge has a rear opening it does not need to be as long as the blade you want to make. I would assume the same is true about the general blacksmith folks, though I wager they care more about width to have room for scrolls etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Trump Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 Ok, truth time. As of this writing...I am drunk and as such my mind is easily blown, I'm the introvert and creative type. Once I sober up a little and can handle the revelations gifted to me, by you all...I will respond appropriately. I just didn't want you good folks to think I wasn't giving you the due attention you deserve. You guys are awesome! I keep bragging about this awesome forum with highly intelligent people in it. What a great time. Thank you all. -Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Trump Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 This is somewhat unrelated but I just moved into this house a few months ago and when I did I found the previous tenant left an entire engine block, about 80lbs of nuts/bolts, a multitude of spring steel from a few cars and a small Toyota truck bed....oh yeah, and a dirt bike chassis as well as a full 5 gallon bucket of used oil. I was cursing this man at first but now that I'm blacksmith minded I could kiss this man! I also have several front ends but either they have a heat treated coating or they're pig iron. Maybe a spark test will tell the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adun Clebr Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 I wouldn't spark test much more than a cigarette lighter whilst drunk... Good deal on the left behind treasure; should be some decent materials to work with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Trump Posted January 28, 2017 Author Share Posted January 28, 2017 Unfortunately I dropped an F bomb and won't be here any longer. I've downloaded the entire website and all its info...for that I thank you and your friends....sadly this means I cannot respond to anything anyone says from this point on. I'm a ghost. Blacksmithing>Words yet the administration Glenn disagrees. It sickens me that we share the same name. Good luck friends! this poster admits he is drunk yet wants to blame Glenn for his stupidity. and by now he is clueless why both his accounts are banned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 28, 2017 Share Posted January 28, 2017 The F-bomb is NOT tolerated on IForgeIron. You received a warning stating that it was inappropriate language. This thread and your other thread on the F-bomb subject are no longer open for posting, in order to slow things down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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