Grussingcustomknives Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 So im back and I decided to make a forced air forge (hopefully im posting in the right spot). Does any one have some info on them or links? The forge im making the id is gonna be 5.5 inches and around 12-14 inches long. Lined with 2 inches of inswool satinite and plistix. Also im wondering what size pipe to use for the forced air main pipes. Also what blower would be good I found these 2 http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/forge-blowers.html http://www.centaurforge.com/Dayton-115-volt-Blower/productinfo/D5/ thanks! Oh yea I forgot to say it will be for Damascus and forging some knives! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 You are talking about putting a great big blower on a miniature size forge; just totally the wrong fit. The whole point of a fan blown burner is to pack more flame per second through a given volume of space. Miniature forges go naturally with NA burners. Why don't you investigate a ribbon burner on a five gallon size forge shell? That's about as miniature a fan blown forge as will work properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Still can't make up your mind can you Garret? The only good thing about your mind spinning rapidly is it keeps your head stable like a gyroscope. You've about driven everybody who's tried helping you crazy with rapid fire and often pointless questions. You already have more info than you need to build a working forge virtually any size. Pick something within YOUR shop skills, build it and start learning to blacksmith. Once you have some REAL experience at the anvil you might have enough skills and experience to successfully make pattern welds. That's when you should maybe start thinking about making a hotter forge. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 43 minutes ago, Frosty said: Still can't make up your mind can you Garret? The only good thing about your mind spinning rapidly is it keeps your head stable like a gyroscope. You've about driven everybody who's tried helping you crazy with rapid fire and often pointless questions. You already have more info than you need to build a working forge virtually any size. Pick something within YOUR shop skills, build it and start learning to blacksmith. Once you have some REAL experience at the anvil you might have enough skills and experience to successfully make pattern welds. That's when you should maybe start thinking about making a hotter forge. Frosty The Lucky. Well the reason i want to make a blown forge is because I went to a knife show hammer in and made 3 billits of Damascus and got tought by a professional that's been doing it 38 years he said blowers are better they heat up the Damascus billits alot faster. Also i used a blower there to make Damascus. 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: You are talking about putting a great big blower on a miniature size forge; just totally the wrong fit. The whole point of a fan blown burner is to pack more flame per second through a given volume of space. Miniature forges go naturally with NA burners. Why don't you investigate a ribbon burner on a five gallon size forge shell? That's about as miniature a fan blown forge as will work properly. Well the pipe I have is 10 inch diameter 15 inches long. I went to a knifeshow/ hammer in and made Damascus with a forge that same width mabye a inch or 2 longer using that 112 cfm blower. Also the guy there that tought me is a pro hes been doing it for 38 years and he said a blower is better and heats up Damascus billits faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Garret: We've been through this frantic routine of you seeing something or hearing something or in this case hearing it from someone who you respect more than us. Ask him. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 27 minutes ago, Frosty said: Garret: We've been through this frantic routine of you seeing something or hearing something or in this case hearing it from someone who you respect more than us. Ask him. Frosty The Lucky. Frosty tell me some good, useful, information that can save me loads of money and possibly keep me from killing myself or others so I can build a forge for making titanium and uranium Damascus swords. Then I'll reply telling you I know a guy who knows better than you because he's done it and you don't have a clue. Why are people like this? I'll never understand people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 He's just a kid, give him a few years to ripen up and probably be okay. If Dad were here he'd probably say I was worse but what do parents know?. At least you aren't asking my secret for making the matter anti matter damacus swords. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyForge Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 If it matters that much to him, why be so anti? Seriously , I have nothing to add. My T-burner works fine but I have not tried anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 That would be even better than my sword. Please tell me the ancient secrets required to acquire useable quatities and forge antimatter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, MonkeyForge said: If it matters that much to him, why be so anti? Seriously , I have nothing to add. My T-burner works fine but I have not tried anything else. Do you call replying to more than 50 similar questions "anti"? How about you picking up the slack then you'd have something positive to add. Sure Michael but you need a Roc feather from the left side of it's right wing root and a photon tuning trident. Beam on up when you're ready and don't forget a nice bottle of single malt. something in the 25 yr. range slightly smokey sweet with a touch of the peat please. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Grussing, was the forge you used vertical or horizontal. Most blown forges for Damascus work are vertical. I would post a link but I am still confused about what links are ok and what ones are not here. It is only slightly more confusing than this forums policy on how people talk to each other. I am also assuming even though the guy had a 112 CFM blower, he had a ball valve or gate to control the air headed to the forge? I would look for information on building the "Don Fogg" forge. As far as materials, since this forge will be at welding heat most of it's life, I would use a higher temperature blanket like Cerachem and use ITC100 instead of plistex over the satanite, which is what I have in my forges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Cochran Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 38 minutes ago, Frosty said: Do you call replying to more than 50 similar questions "anti"? How about you picking up the slack then you'd have something positive to add. Sure Michael but you need a Roc feather from the left side of it's right wing root and a photon tuning trident. Beam on up when you're ready and don't forget a nice bottle of single malt. something in the 25 yr. range slightly smokey sweet with a touch of the peat please. Frosty The Lucky. Gotcha Scotty, I mean Frosty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 2 hours ago, CMS3900 said: Grussing, was the forge you used vertical or horizontal. Most blown forges for Damascus work are vertical. I would post a link but I am still confused about what links are ok and what ones are not here. It is only slightly more confusing than this forums policy on how people talk to each other. I am also assuming even though the guy had a 112 CFM blower, he had a ball valve or gate to control the air headed to the forge? I would look for information on building the "Don Fogg" forge. As far as materials, since this forge will be at welding heat most of it's life, I would use a higher temperature blanket like Cerachem and use ITC100 instead of plistex over the satanite, which is what I have in my forges. It was horizontal with that 112 cfm blower. He said for Damascus a blower is better cause it heats up steel 3 times faster. And I used it and it heated it up fast. And I talked to frosty and did reasurche and I know im gonna do 2 inches inswool satinite and plistix. 3 hours ago, Frosty said: Garret: We've been through this frantic routine of you seeing something or hearing something or in this case hearing it from someone who you respect more than us. Ask him. Frosty The Lucky. He said a blower heats up Damascus billits 3 times faster than venturi. Its a horizontal forge with that 112 cfm blower. He said the only negitive was electricity (not a problem for me) and it's not a big deal that u have to tune it each time u fire it up. I got everything figured out except for the burner lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 The burner and the forge have to be sized to work together. If they are not then it doesn't work! Or works poorly. Would dropping in a 1000 HP engine in your car make it go faster?, No it would squish it flat and it wouldn't go at all---even with *MANY* times the horsepower of the engine you are currently using. Things like 3 times faster are completely worthless WITHOUT THE DETAILS. With his forge the blown burner may be 3 times faster than a NA burner with your forge it MIGHT be the opposite. IF you make an exact copy of what he is using then it should work exactly like he says it does. If you do not then do not be surprised if it doesn't! You do realize that people have been pattern welding using charcoal for about 2000 years now; so better junk all your propane stuff cause 2000 is better than 38 right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 20 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: The burner and the forge have to be sized to work together. If they are not then it doesn't work! Or works poorly. Would dropping in a 1000 HP engine in your car make it go faster?, No it would squish it flat and it wouldn't go at all---even with *MANY* times the horsepower of the engine you are currently using. Things like 3 times faster are completely worthless WITHOUT THE DETAILS. With his forge the blown burner may be 3 times faster than a NA burner with your forge it MIGHT be the opposite. IF you make an exact copy of what he is using then it should work exactly like he says it does. If you do not then do not be surprised if it doesn't! You do realize that people have been pattern welding using charcoal for about 2000 years now; so better junk all your propane stuff cause 2000 is better than 38 right? What forge do u use for Damascus? I know a na burner 3/4 inch is good for 300-350 cubic inches I posted here about blown burners cause I don't know about them Im really confused on what burner I choose one then some says something else and on and on.... I just want a burner that will work great for a forge body 5.5 id and 15" pipe (can shorten length) and will get Damascus up to temp fastest and will get to forge welding temps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 I've used everything from a hole in the ground with charcoal, to a twin single action bellows blown adobe side blown forge using charcoal, to a double lunged "great bellows" forge using coal, to a hand crank blower on a forge made from a 1937 banjo rear end axle cover for the fire pot, to both a single blown burner to double NA burners---note I once melted steel in this last one accidentally. I have a friend who uses a ribbon burner forge and that's on my list for the next time I build one---I had my first pattern welding class in the spring of 1984 taught 1 on 2 by a fellow who teaches for the ABS school in AR. Guess what; it's the skill of the user more than than the forge to do it! I've seen Billy Merritt weld at temps I'd say were to cold to forge at! If he told me he had welded a broken heart to the crack of dawn I'd believe him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said: I've used everything from a hole in the ground with charcoal, to a twin single action bellows blown adobe side blown forge using charcoal, to a double lunged "great bellows" forge using coal, to a hand crank blower on a forge made from a 1937 banjo rear end axle cover for the fire pot, to both a single blown burner to double NA burners---note I once melted steel in this last one accidentally. I have a friend who uses a ribbon burner forge and that's on my list for the next time I build one---I had my first pattern welding class in the spring of 1984 taught 1 on 2 by a fellow who teaches for the ABS school in AR. Guess what; it's the skill of the user more than than the forge to do it! I've seen Billy Merritt weld at temps I'd say were to cold to forge at! If he told me he had welded a broken heart to the crack of dawn I'd believe him... If you were me what would you do? Remember i have a 10 inch pipe 15 inches long (i can cut length shorter) and once I put 2 inches of kaowool satinite and plustix the id will be 5.5 inches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 I would remember that blacksmithing is an iterative process and chose *1* design and go with it and if it doesn't work TO SUIT YOURSELF then I would try another. REMEMBER you are not building a car to win Formula 1 races, you are building a car to learn to drive on and you will probably need to upgrade several times to get to the "racecar" type. If you would have spent all this time working with a forge than trying to make a perfect one that will do everything you would be far ahead of where you are now. As for me; well my current shop (20'x60'x10') does not have electricity to it and probably won't till I retire; so I'd go with one that doesn't require a blower; if I had access to electricity I might go the other way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou L Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Thomas, for about $300 you can have a solar panel charging a deep cycle battery and run a 12v blower in your shop all year. Heck, if I didn't have to deal with so many trees over my workshop area I'd be doing that. ....concerning the original topic of this thread: You are thinking too much. The chances of you building the just right forever forge on your first try are ZERO. You need to build something, try it, learn to forge with it and then build something else. The reason you get so many answers is that there is no one way to get there. Take this advice from someone who tried buildings forge that was beyond the scope of his skills. I have a cool forge now and all I can think about is what it can't do. While I'm working at the forge I find myself planning for the next forge. Stop planning and thinking and just build something. You won't regret it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Wow and for $0 I can run NA burners and do perfectly well with them! Why when that money can go into my put electricity in the shop account and I can schlep the NA forges between both shops and out camping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 9 hours ago, Lou L said: Thomas, for about $300 you can have a solar panel charging a deep cycle battery and run a 12v blower in your shop all year. Heck, if I didn't have to deal with so many trees over my workshop area I'd be doing that. ....concerning the original topic of this thread: You are thinking too much. The chances of you building the just right forever forge on your first try are ZERO. You need to build something, try it, learn to forge with it and then build something else. The reason you get so many answers is that there is no one way to get there. Take this advice from someone who tried buildings forge that was beyond the scope of his skills. I have a cool forge now and all I can think about is what it can't do. While I'm working at the forge I find myself planning for the next forge. Stop planning and thinking and just build something. You won't regret it. My bad I forgot to say I build a 20 # propane bottle forge (I know the id was to big for the 3/4 inch burner but it still worked ok to forge. This one i want to be 110% i can forge weld with it. And yea I probably am over thinking it a little. And I only know 1 guy that makes Damascus with na burners and online there is alot of negativity towards na burners for Damascus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Doesn't JPH use NA burners and wrote the book on bladesmithing? (Well 3 of them "The Complete Bladesmith, the Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade"---and we are eagerly awaiting the 4th!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Grussingcustomknives said: This one i want to be 110% i can forge weld with it. 14 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: Guess what; it's the skill of the user more than than the forge to do it! Grussing, you shouldn't ignore that point. You could give me the best anvil, the most expensive "forging hammer," a forge that can turn steel into a July 4th sparkler, all the tooling you can imagine, and I still couldn't turn out the quality or quantity of forged products that some of the guys on here do in an afternoon when they are just puttering around. If you don't have the combination of knowledge and experience applicable to your task then the tools are only a small part of the equation. I'm not trying to discourage you, but it's entirely possible that you may fail at pattern welding with a given forge when someone else could be successful using your forge and tools. I don't know how you will ever be "110%" sure (and I personally hate the use of 110%) until/unless you have actually done it. Even stating that you want to make sure it can reach forge welding temperatures is not a guarantee, since as Thomas pointed out there are people who seem to be able to forge weld at what appear to be unbelievably low temperatures for doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 42 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: Doesn't JPH use NA burners and wrote the book on bladesmithing? (Well 3 of them "The Complete Bladesmith, the Master Bladesmith, The Pattern Welded Blade"---and we are eagerly awaiting the 4th!) Whos jph? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Can't search on the book names to see who wrote them? I drop students who can't do basic work on their own---unless they are paying me for my time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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